Sorry in advance...

[watchescarswinecigars]

I can imaging lots of eye rolling at this point... apologies in advance but I wanted to check in with the experts before making a decision.

I've done a lot of research in trying to find a good 997.1. My favorite 911 for a lot of reasons and no other will do.

The car I have found is sub 25k miles, great spec and very well cared for for the last 10 years by its second and current owner.

Everything looks good on the car other than the images from a recent borescope.

I've read all the stories on here and elsewhere. I've seen loads of bore score pictures and I think I know the answer to my question but I wanted to check.

This is a private sale but I've spoken to the Porsche specialist that has looked after the car for 10 years. They know it well and say its a good honest car with an owner that has always done the work they reccomend.

However their last service stated it has "Varying degrees of score on most cylinders. cylinder 6 has medium scoring present, remaining cylinders have light polishing marks".

The pictures aren't great as you can see... and while I've seen a lot of pictures, I'm not sure if this is bad or not. Or is it the case that any marking should be avoided.

I'd be eternally grateful if you'd look at and respond to the poll... or provide any other thoughts around this conundrum.

With thanks, Newbie!

 

[T8]

It looks like there's only a potential problem with Cylinder 6 which is the most common. Sadly if even one cylinder is affected a strip down will be required at some time.

The car will probably keep going ok for some time but the issue won't go away.

Once again this shows that mileage isn't a factor in this problem. It's far more to with what type of driving the car has been subjected to - eg. short journeys.

As long as you don't pay a premium for the fact that the car has low miles and factor in that you might have to get the engine sorted during your tenure (or take a hit at a later date) it's not necessarily one to walk away from. Personally I'd run but many others would take a chance - at the right price.

Good Luck with whatever you decide.

This thread might help.

http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=138325&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=bore+score

ps. :welcome: to 911uk

 

[Indischrot]

I've always wondered, what do people mean by 'short journeys'? A certain amount of miles in particular?

 

[watchescarswinecigars]

It looks like there's only a potential problem with Cylinder 6 which is the most common. Sadly if even one cylinder is affected a strip down will be required at some time.

The car will probably keep going ok for some time but the issue won't go away.

Once again this shows that mileage isn't a factor in this problem. It's far more to with what type of driving the car has been subjected to - eg. short journeys.

As long as you don't pay a premium for the fact that the car has low miles and factor in that you might have to get the engine sorted during your tenure (or take a hit at a later date) it's not necessarily one to walk away from. Personally I'd run but many others would take a chance - at the right price.

Good Luck with whatever you decide.

This thread might help.

http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=138325&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=bore+score

ps. :welcome: to 911uk

Thanks for the welcome and appreciate the comments. The car is £33k. I've now also seen the over rev report and there are loads in 1st and 2nd gear and 10 in 3rd... not sure if thats bad to be honest. Its a manual and 4/5/6/ are clean. It's a conundrum. Suppose I could always get a Cayman. :roll:

 

[drmark]

Sounds a good car - other than the bore score.
But it's not worth anywhere near the asking price with a rebuild on the horizon. If the vendor will deal with this is mind I would buy and start a slush fund.
If not. Walk. Or run.

 

[jonttt]

911v did a good explanation of over revs and risks here:

https://911virgin.com/engine-revs/

Ps welcome to the forum :thumb:

 

[Gt3Owl]

I'd get a better quality image and get a decent specialist to review it or even carry out the bore scope, Hartech would be my recommendation!

The images I see only look like machining marks (light/angle can make them look worse than they are)

Good luck 👍

 

[Zingari]

This is the venerable Curate's egg.

I'm sure there are plenty of cars running around with borescore that are unknown and may never cause a problem but once you see it you cant unsee it. Some owners may be blasé and not worry where another will be shaking like a shitting dog checking every journey for sorry exhaust or strange noises that will ruin the ownership experience. I'm more in the latter category and wouldn't buy it.

I'd see if Baz at Hartech is willing to offer a view on the pictures or whether better are needed. Whilst Hartech are the gold standard for repair there are other independents that can sort it but you'll still be balls deep into at least £5k :nooo:

I think RR3 is 'OK' given the number of ignitions. Porsche will warranty at RR3 but only after a leak down test.

All these 'issues' make it difficult for a seller which could affect you down the line if you bought it so factor that in.

 

[watchescarswinecigars]

Thank you all for the comments. The owner has had the car 10 years and is probably of the view its worth its money... which is fair enough. I'd go for it at £25K and stick it into Hartech in the NY but that's not on the table unfortunaltey. I did see a 997 with around 35k miles with a Hartech 6 cylinder rebuild go for £31k. I only noticed it once sold and it could only have been uo for a day or so... this is what I hope to find... lets see!

 

[Yellow]

You will pay a premium for such a low mileage car. If it has started bore scoring then it will need to be rebuilt at some point either by you or if you sell it the buyer would expect it to be priced appropriately.

The general advice is to buy on condition above all else (e.g. mileage), so I'd look for an alternative with either a hartech rebuild or that hasnt started to bore score. Or a gen2 with the dfi engine.

 

[T8]

I've always wondered, what do people mean by 'short journeys'? A certain amount of miles in particular?

I consider a 'short journey' to be one that doesn't allow a car's water, oil and engine to warm up completely and then to run for a while at medium revs through most of the gears.

I can't see that this would be at all possible within 20 miles which is why I never use my 911 for journeys shorter than that. Sadly many do and when the engine is as potentially problematic as the 996 and 997.1 Carreras it becomes an issue.

 

[bazhart]

I have been asked to comment by Zingarri and am happy to try but the pictures are not clear enough for me to make a diagnosis (Grant here at Hartech would be better at interpreting them but would probably say the same), but they don't look serious to me and from what I can interpret from them - I doubt there is another similar car available in better bore shape.

Bore scoring that has not been brought forward or to a head by some other issue (like overheating, low oil, wrong grade of oil etc), but that is simply the result of gradual normal deterioration - takes a very long time to get worse and the signs are gradual and usually can be coped with providing time to prepare for the inevitable rebuild (if used until very high mileages eventually accumulate).

If you make sure it is looked after by specialists that have a history of long served satisfied customers with these models (and who do not just follow the original advice to use the relatively thin oils that were recommended when it was new) but have their own understanding of how to look after them as they age - but you accept that one day the engine may need to be re-built - but probably not because it let you down but more because the gradual deterioration has been monitored and the time has eventually come to do something about it - you should have a happy ownership.

Perhaps whoever has been looking after it until now should continue (they seem to have done a good job).

If your future use is for very low mileages you might never need it to be done anyway - but on the other hand - those pictures are insufficient to make firm conclusions from and certainly not suitable for anyone to advise you for or against the purchase.

It is sensible to ask for advice but no one can predict exactly when the engine might need repairing and the decision about buying or not should be taken with an open mind as to the possibilities and always be prepared for the need to have an expensive period that wasn't expected but was prepared for.

Most owners never have a serious engine problem and those that do usually knew it was a possibility and are prepared for it.

So although it is extremely unlikely you should always be prepared for the worst.


I hope that helps

Baz

 

[drmark]

These are key points for me, from industry expert Baz above.

1. Those pictures are not evidence enough.
2. No one can accurately predict what is going to happen, or when.
3. If you buy a 997, factor in a possible rebuild at some stage if holding for the longer term.

To which I would add: clear borescope examination, while reassuring, doesn't mean you won't have a problem next week / month/ year. As I have learned the hard way.

Screening in the absence of concerning symptoms -like borescoping an outwardly good engine - is an issue we struggle with in medicine. We often don't have enough evidence to know whether to intervene, or when. And it would seem engineering faces similar challenges.

 

[Jam911]

Follow the experts advice i.e. Baz

I pampered my 997 from 30 k and it still suffered bore score at 47 k

 

[HMG66]

I would wager that every 997 will show some evidence of scoring.

I would try and get a good deal on the car if everything else checks out and just drive it with a dollar contingency.

You will probably have driven it 50k miles and sold the car by the time any noticeable symptoms appear.

If you can't buy a 997 without worrying then you either need one that has had a full rebuild or choose another model as it will make your ownership experience a miserable one.

I've bought, driven and sold a number of very low mileage but 15-25 year old Porsches with zero issues and problems. Your either worry about these sorts of things or you don't IMO.

If you believe the internet seemingly all Porsches have inherent weaknesses of some sort or other( but probably no different than any other manufacturer) even the more modern ones do.