Porsche "For Life" coolant - Is it really? Coolant

[deMort]

Thanks for the advice .. i'll get one ordered up and start to do so testing .. i think it's going to be interesting on the 996,s thats for sure .

 

[deMort]

Ok so i've ordered a couple of those cheap PH testers but now i need to know what i'm actually looking for ..

A small bit of looking and from this post it would seem a high Alkaline content is more consistent with what i see as it refers to pitting .. thats what i see on ally pipes ..

The ally turns to a white powder in small dots .. if you dig it out you will go through the entire pipe but until then it doesn't leak until a substantial amount has oxidised .

https://corrosion-doctors.org/MatSelect/corraluminalloys.htm

The acid side seems to corrode bigger sections ? if so that's not the cause i see so a little help here ..

High Alkaline or high on the acidic side as to me i'm looking for a high alkaline reading .

There is also the heat factor .. pipes will have a heat range of approx 0-110 degrees .. does that have an effect as not all sections of pipes will reach the higher temps .

Moving well out of what i do for a living here !

 

[jl-c]

DeMort, have a look here.
https://flash-cooling.com/en/coolant-ph/

I also have a refractometer but they do come more expensive
They are quite an interesting company , however it does give useful info on PH testing.

 

[deMort]

Excellent .. a low PH will be acidic and a high PH will be alkaline ..

Both can corrode ally ..

High PH levels though seem to be consistent with the pin prick holes i see on a regular basis .. not high acidic lvls .

I think i'll do some testing .. see what values i get over a range of cars and we can go from there .

I'm still not 100 % convinced by this but i will test .. see what i get then come back .. bear in mind this is a month at least ..

Someone nudge me if i haven't posted by then .. memory like a sieve these days but this is something i would like to investigate further .

BTW .. nice to see the mention of the " electrolysis " damage i mentioned as being down to vapor bubbles .. not a porsche issue though .. perhaps iron blocks only ?

I checked my refractometer .. it doesn't do PH but just about everything else from antifreeze to washer fluid content ... sigh .

 

[C11BRA]

Very interesting thread. Especially as I'm about to refill my car tomorrow morning after a comprehensive pipe change operation. Coolant pipes, brake pipes, clutch pipe and AC over the engine pipes.

DeMort. I agree about your comment where pipes corrode at the support location points. Probably moisture retention & rubbing. Hence why I applied a layer of tape at strategic points to help prevent this. I then coated all the pipe in a tough textured coating. Won't stop internal corrosion.





My HP ac pipe (Over the engine) had a tiny pin hole leak (spotted due to UV dye) but I decided to change the LP at the same time. An expensive decision but in for a penny........

I have filled all my coolant pipe quick fit joints with special waterproof grease (recommend on this forum at some point). I will apply further wax oil style protection once pressure tests are completed tomorrow with hopefully no leaks detected.

Fingers crossed for tomorrow.

 

[C11BRA]

I will update will completed photos tomorrow. Hopefully.

 

[remarklima]

This is very interesting - I've recently had my front crossover pipes replaced at great expense... The garage said do not treat them, or protect them, they're essentially a 10 year replacement part.

Whilst I guess this is true, I'd read that even OPC's will waxoil the joints. Before the corrosion sets in, should I get them treated and protected? And like said, replace the coolant at the same time? I assumed they'd have changed the coolant when they replaced the pipes, but this has me thinking they may have stored it and reused?

 

[deMort]

@ C11BRA

I get the feeling i don't really need to tell you anything as you certainly know what you're doing but anyways ..

change the a/c dryer which i expect you already are going to and ideally give it at least a 1 hour vac down soon after .

The more moisture you remove from the a/c and the longer it will last but to be fair .. doing none of this and your still into 8 years plus on the a/c pipes i would have thought .

Protecting the pipes inside of any pipe bracket is genius young man and will give a far longer life to these pipes .


@ remarklima

Its common practise to save as much antifreeze as possible and reuse it .. it's not cheap which is the reason .. crossover pipes and they would still have lost a fair bit so about 3-4 litres would have been added at a guess ... your invoice will say how much they have added .

Not protecting the new pipes .. hmm .. well each garage has its own method .. to be fair the original ones have lasted in excess of 10 years so logically the new ones will .. I spray wax oil over new ones though .. whether it helps or not long term i can't say ..

To be honest i spray wax oil over a lot of items i fit .. tandem pump for example .. on a major service my garage sprays this stuff over the brake pipes , coolant pipes and anything that's showing signs of corrosion .. perhaps that's just us :dont know:


This post though is about the possibility of antifreeze breaking down over a long period of time .. it's not something to start panicking about .. we still have to prove it and for me whilst i have changed my view to a degree im still thinking 996 are the cars that might have an issue ... early 997 maybe .

This is why i've bought some PH testers .. i will test many cars going forward and make up my own mind ..

I will of course post my findings in time and people can make up their own minds .

 

[C11BRA]

Thanks deMort.

Dryer changed.

Capacity of coolant noted at 32 litres. I think I managed to wear about 20 litres of it during strip down. It certainly keeps on giving. 😂😂

I managed to get about 25+ litres of new coolant into it today. 28 maybe. Allowing for a few litres in the engine. Seems about right. 3 new radiators and all new pipes means that it was totally dry except the block.

Here are a few photos from today showing my coated pipes.



I even re-coated my driveshafts. No idea why the powder coat seems to fall off these. Just looked ugly.



She's alive!!!!!

 

[deMort]

I know what you mean .. there is always more coolant in these and it always catches you unaware as you move something ..

Coolant down the back of the neck in the middle of winter .. grr .. hate working on cars at times that's for sure !!!

Car is looking impressive i must say .. some quality work there .. yes i have looked at your other thread but there's nothing i could add and to be honest i don't like to on posts like that .. you know full well what you are doing

I don't know exactly how much coolant is in the car .. i assume about 26 ltrs which porsche state should be a 50 - 50 mix so about 13 litres of antifreeze is required .. that lvl is a bit overkill to be honest for our country but these cars are designed for all countries so that's probably the top end at about -31 degrees C .

Better to be a bit under than over though .. too much antifreeze and it's not as an effective coolant .

 

[diceman]

I flushed with this : - https://www.halfords.com/motoring/b.../halfords-battery-top-up-water-5l-402396.html I bought 35 litres based on the manual stating coolant qty was upto 35 ish litres but only managed to get around 20 litres in (manual and no third rad). The other 15 litres i've subsequently used for a final rinse after washing and finally managed to avoid water spots!

I used the compressor and the vacuum refill method for both the flush and final coolant drain and even tilted the car up down at each end and removed as many of the coolant pipe connections as I could (only flexible lines and pipes to rad/water pump and those thin lines running under the engine.) I retrieved around 18-19 litres of coolant and the same of the flush water.

On refill with bleeding and a little coolant loss whilst opping up with engien running I managed to get around 20 litres in.

As such I'm pretty comfortable that the base 3.8 manual has a cololant capacity more around 20 litres and this will increase for auto with 3rd rad and the X51 third setups.

I used the cheap litmus paper test strips for the coolant and also tested it with a cheap hygrometer.

From internet: - "Glycol breakdown products are acidic and contribute to a drop in pH. Once a coolant has degraded, due to glycol breakdown and pH drop, engine metals are at risk for corrosion."

As the inhibitors are used up and the glycol deteriorates the acidity of the coolant increases (lower pH).

Most fresh coolant mix ends up with a pH around 8.5-8.75 and it's suggested that anything below 7 means the coolant is too acidic and needs changing as the inhibitors have been used up. Close to 7 will suggest that the coolant's life is not long and you may wish to change if you're doing a job already requiring a coolant top-up.

I do see benefits in wrapping the pipes around the clamp positions as per C11BRA's post and winder if the aluminium pipes have a form of anodising or similar that wodul be worn off at teh clamp points. Maybe helicopter tape would be ideal here?

 

[diceman]

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=141423&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

My post and info when I swapped the coolant and capacities.
18 monthe on and I've not added any more coolant/there has been no change of coolant colour so I can't see that there was even 5 litres left in the system and suspect I got all of it out.

The amount of vacuum produced in the system is around 26 inHg so not enough to boiler off any coolant in the system but it does start to spit tiny droplets of coolant out of the venturi long before 26inHg vacuum in reached suggesting they are being removed.

 

[C11BRA]

Helicopter tape would have been better. Thicker and more durable.

I only had tank tape to hand. And thought this was better than nothing. Tbh, the main issue was the corrosion at the ends where they accept the hoses. But I still felt it was a better solution and could not ignore the idea.

New pipe.



Slightly worried about the posts saying that new pipes don't last as long as the factory ones!!! I was hoping for the opposite. Hoping Porsche improved the protection. I wonder why they were not galvanised? Or stainless steel. Would surely only add a few Euros to each part. I'd pay.

And DeMort. I'm always ready for your advice.
In fact. I wonder what your thoughts are on another idea I had whilst replacing all 4 hard brake lines. I noticed that on my 996 that the pipes were pretty shocking. Close to the flexi Union but also where they are exposed under the chassis. On my 997, they were much better. But due to engine coming out, I decided to do them all. These pipes are steel brake lines with a plastic coating from the factory. DeMort. I suggest that the main issue with these pipes is that they suffer from stone chips where exposed (especially where they have a tight bend under the chassis) and also where they rub in the pipe clips. These were the only rusty parts on my 997. I planned to add a layer of heat shrink tubing in these areas in my new pipes to give them an extra layer of protection. However. The heat shrink big enough to go over the Union made it too large to shrink to the pipe size. So I added a layer of PVC tape to all exposed areas and took care not to scratch the coating off the pipes that were less exposed. One big problem is that now I have lost the opportunity to monitor the corrosion. But I gambled with the fact that maybe this will protect them from corrosion???? A better solution may have been a silicone tube (with a split) that can be added to new pipes but removed for inspection.

 

[deMort]

@ diceman

Thanks for the PH figures .. it gives me something to work with .. testers will be here the end of the week so i'll start having a play next week with what we have in the workshop including what a fresh container of Porsche antifreeze reads .

The vacuum refill tool is only for refilling .. if there is still coolant in the car it will spit it out of the breather tube ... air borne antifreeze is best not breathed in as antifreeze is toxic .

method i use .. vac the coolant system down .. give it 30 seconds to check for leaks .. ie it doesn't hold a vacuum then open the tap and fill the car .. i have the container at a height above the lvl of the coolant bottle ..

When all done i get a colleague to start the car and hold at 3K rpm .. i then add coolant until at the correct lvl .. it will bubble a lot to start with but soon settle down .

Make sure the rad cap is fitted BEFORE the revs are allowed to drop .. if not it will get Very messy !!

We don't jack the car up or anything .. its done on a ramp and this method usually means you don't need a top up later on .


@ C11BRA

997 brake pipes are plastic coated .. i'm pretty sure 996 were not on the original set but these days come through with this coating .

The coating is good but i've seen a 2009 997 blow its n/s pipes on the brake tester not that long ago so whilst the pipes are better there is still an issue .

That is mainly how the car is used , stored and where its located .. ie coastal .

The exposure of the pipes is also the issue hence most brake or coolant pipes at the front tend to suffer more .. stone chips .. well .. that 997 was under an undertray so that wasn't the reason .. the car though from looking at it .. it had spent some time stored or unused outside i would guess at .

Any type of additional protection to pipes .. the point is to stop water / salt getting in contact with the pipes .. hence i'm always banging on about wax oil .. but anything that stops this will do the job .

You have wrapped the brake pipes in tape .. if its waterproof and no chance of water getting under it then that's just fine ..

I'm a little dubious though that tape will stop water ekeing its way inside of it ... if that happens you have trapped water against the pipes and that not good as it will accelerate the corrosion and not inhibit it .

Let me know what type of tape and if it's waterproof and no way of allowing water to enter .. if dubious then i feel removing it would be a huge job then cover it in wax oil or similar perhaps .


brake pipe ferrules .. they rot as well .. again waxoyl or a derivative .

Bear in mind though .. the original pipes lasted a long time and the new ones will .. all you are trying to do is extend that but we are many years into the future regardless .


Your crossover pipes .. again wax oil the collars and try and get it in the actual collar ... yes they are the same as the original ones .. not modified .

 

[diceman]

@demort
1) The pH of Porsche coolant will be different as it's a concentrate that needs diluting with water. I'd test the pH of a 50:50 mix as specified by Porsche as your baseline.
2) I used your method when refilling, it was only minor fluid spits that came out, I had an extra hose on the Venturi to catch these and contain them but it was very minor.
3) what are the brake pipe clips made of. Could this be galvanic corrosion of the pipes?