suspension refresh, polybushes?

[Lj911]

New on here so hi 911UK!

Ive got a 996 C2, nice car with just 50K on it, had the car now for 6 months and I've been enjoying it as a weekend/summer toy.
I plan to do some work on the suspension, partly for looks and handling. The car handles reasonably well but I'm certain it could be better due to wear etc (its now 14 years old after all!), so i just wish to make it as new if not slightly enhanced.

Just for some background I've previously had a couple of very sorted corrados as weekend cars, the first a vr6 which had weitec coilovers (part of KW), arbs and every bush,drop link, ball joint,top/engine/gearbox mount replaced with genuine vw items, the thing was fairly low and handled like a dream. Also had one with an R32 in it, very well know car (if you are into them!), it was incredible for what it was although i did notice that the handling was missing the uprated arb's, despite running KW V3's.

So my plans with the 966 are to go for KW coilovers, probably H&R arb's (although i did see someone doing hollow ones so would be interested in those if i can remember the brand?)
I then want to replace all the bushes and this is where the question comes, should i go for OE Porsche ones which really means new arms etc, or should i go for Powerflex polybushes, or even these spherical mono ball things form RSS and Elephant Racing (expensive option by the looks of it) (this would not be for their adjustable arms etc as that just seems way too expensive and overkill for what is predominately a road car) So do you guys have experience of the non OE options above? Are polybushes really harsh? What are these mono ball things like?
At the same time i would also replace the top mounts, should i go for Porsche OE items or there are some Elephant Racing ones which either go into the original mounting plate or their full adjustable top mount, i have also seen a similar Rennline version that is adjustable, what is best here? i guess adjustment is always useful but again it is just a fast road car that I'm looking for.

I saw in a Powerflex kit, there are subframe bushes included, again poly here or OE?
One thing after reading on here i have decided, is to replace the engine mounts with the RSS items, has anyone replaced gearbox mounts?

Sorry for such a long post, quite a bit to think about! I would be interested in peoples thoughts/experiences and whether to achieve the best set up i should mix and match elements of the above options.


laurence.

 

[Waz]

:welcome: there are a couple of people on here who will be able to answer your questions.
But for a definitive answer give cris a call at center of gravity in Tamworth. His knowledge of 911 handling is legendary. :thumb:

 

[Lj911]

Thanks for the welcome 8)
Yeah I was thinking I would call some of the experts, read good things about centre gravity, was probably going to see someone like them for a geo set up when it's all fitted. Just wanted to get a bit of feed back before calling these guys, didn't want to sound like a total muppet!

 

[NXI20]

I've had poly bushes & now have monoballs everywhere. Poly bushes are ok, but monoballs are way better & don't introduce any extra noise. The GMG monoballs are the best quality but the RSS ones are not too bad & when they wear out you can replace them with better quality.

I wouldn't bother with a stiffer gearbox mount unless you are going to put solid subframe bushes in as well. RSS engine mounts for a road car? I doubt you'll feel the benefit tbh.

Chris @ Centre Gravity is a top bloke & has done all the many, many suspension mods on my GT3 over the last 6 years. He's good with novices too

PS: I had a Corrado Storm & 2 x Golf VR6s before too :thumb:

 

[Lj911]

Thanks for the reply, interesting what you say about your switch from poly bushes to monoballs and the noise factor, I've been in cars with full polybush setups before, normally highly modified type cars, and whilst it's hilarious for a half hour blast it's a bit tiresome if you want to actually go somewhere!
When you say that you have monoballs everywhere can you give me a list, it's just that I could only seem to find them for the lower arms after a brief internet search, certainly expensive little items! Get what you pay for I guess!

Only reason for the rss engine mounts is that they seem to get universal praise and as I want to refresh all mounts etc I thought I may as well, probably go with porsche std gearbox mounts also.

Have you also done drop links? Thinking new porsche ones but I've also seen up rated/adjustable ones or are they a bit race car?!
It's so tempting with all this shiny fancy stuff on offer but I can see you could get very carried away :hand:

Good to hear you used to have a Corrado, think I'll always have a soft spot for them

 

[NXI20]

Fill yer boots!

http://www.gmgracing.com/store/index.php/2004/porsche/carrera/suspension.html

I've got the first 7 items on that page + the monoball A-arm kit. I've also got RSS bottom arms all round because you can rebuild both ends fairly cheaply so they make sense in the long run.

Front drop links came from Tarret because I needed their special hangers for the Motons. I got rear Tarret droplinks too but they were crap so I've got custom-made ones now.

It's important to encase everything in rubber boots if you want the monoballs to survive the UK weather. TBH, the dogbones are not really needed but I'm using slicks on track & they murder the standard rubber bushes so you either spend out steadily replacing them or bite the bullet & put something stronger in that will take the punishment. So far after 50K miles, I've only had to replace one monoball other than the ones on the bottom arms which have all been replaced as a precaution rather than because of wear.

There's really nothing wrong with the standard mounts & the only time stiffer ones will be noticeably better is when doing very fast transitions through a chicane on track or trying to change gear (especially 2nd to 3rd) with significant Gs still present coming out of a corner.

 

[Lj911]

Wow! That is a fair few pennies you have spend there!!
Your car really must be quite a weapon!!
That is what I would like mine to be like but I think I might just approach it one step at a time, will definately have a chat with centre gravity to come up with a plan......

 

[NXI20]

It's taken 5 years of development with 1 year's full enjoyment of the results. If you are going to go down this road, my advice would be to start with a better platform. The GT3 is perfect as a base because so many things are already "right", not least the powertrain.

Whatever you decide to do, be aware that you cannot add value to the base car with mods & the more you do, the smaller the potential market if you ever want to sell. Fortunately, I don't ever want to sell mine

 

[monty]

Chris at centre gravity would definitely be worth talking to. He does know Porsche suspension set ups and a nice bloke. Thoroughly enjoyed my afternoon with him and Pete.

 

[Lj911]

Thanks for the replies guys, to be honest I don't think I will be taking my car to the level you have nick, as you rightly say always better to throw money at something that is a better base, and I am so aware of the costs involved in modifying when you get going! Plus the fact that you never get it back, still, it's all good fun
I think this car is going to more about a refresh and light tinker just to bring out a little extra from what is a decent road car.
Seems like I should definately give centre gravity a call/visit, are you guys on some kind of retainer?!!!

 

[NXI20]

No retainer :sad:

Tried others way back in the day but the fact is that nobody else does nothing but suspension and it does show in terms of thoroughness & attention to detail. Completely honest & stands behind his work 100%. That's rare in any supplier, never mind those in the automotive field.

Chris started off as a supplier but became a friend over the years.

 

[Rhodris-dad]

996

Just had new standard suspension control arms and a laser 4 wheel alignment and it drives absolutely fantastic.
Save your money, leave the track mods for the track cars. After all the car was designed to do 175 mph and had about 40 years of development behind it.
With all due respect to you previous cars, they would see a huge improvement from modifications as they were built probably with some generic components
as manufacturers do.
If money is burning a hole in your pocket, maybe you could stick it on a dyno and see if the years have taken away any horses. Head de-coke and valves lapped would make you go quicker than any suspension mods surely?
I am playing Devil's advocate here as sometimes you can lose sight of what you are attempting to achieve.


:dont know: :dont know: :dont know: :dont know: :thumb:

 

[demon]

I have a full set of powerflex poly bushes fitted to a '98 C2, except for ARB bushes, which I opted to keep as OEM. Top mounts and every arm with a ball joint were then replaced with new OEM, in some cases I therefore cut out bushes from the new arms to be replaced with poly...

Not intrusive and makes the car feel nice and "positive" (very subjective...)

Re. the poly subframe mounts vs RSS engine mounts and replacing the gearbox mount - definitely a case one or the other. The combination is unbearably harsh and noisy in a road car - takes away the effortless, muscular feeling the car should have on the road - probably a different story on track though....(?)

Not being about to strip out my poly subframe mounts I therefore have a set of RSS tarmac series engine mounts I need to sell on...
- PM me if interested or want to make an offer

 

[Lj911]

Re: 996

Just had new standard suspension control arms and a laser 4 wheel alignment and it drives absolutely fantastic.
Save your money, leave the track mods for the track cars. After all the car was designed to do 175 mph and had about 40 years of development behind it.
With all due respect to you previous cars, they would see a huge improvement from modifications as they were built probably with some generic components
as manufacturers do.
If money is burning a hole in your pocket, maybe you could stick it on a dyno and see if the years have taken away any horses. Head de-coke and valves lapped would make you go quicker than any suspension mods surely?
I am playing Devil's advocate here as sometimes you can lose sight of what you are attempting to achieve.


:dont know: :dont know: :dont know: :dont know: :thumb:

Yup you are right, a 911 is a great starting point as a fast road car and really that is what I'm aiming to keep it as.
Having said that my last corrado was quite a bit quicker than this 911 and would certainly lap somewhere like castle coombe quicker, it was running over 300bhp, fancy modified gearbox with diff, uprated suspension/brakes. As you say, cars like this really benefit from some work and are great little toys for the track, I've kinda moved away from something that nuts and really i don't have the time inclination to track the 911, as nick said somewhere above, a gt3 would be a better place to start if that was what i was after....

interesting what you say about the head de-coke, is this something you have had done, good results?

 

[Lj911]

I have a full set of powerflex poly bushes fitted to a '98 C2, except for ARB bushes, which I opted to keep as OEM. Top mounts and every arm with a ball joint were then replaced with new OEM, in some cases I therefore cut out bushes from the new arms to be replaced with poly...

Not intrusive and makes the car feel nice and "positive" (very subjective...)

Re. the poly subframe mounts vs RSS engine mounts and replacing the gearbox mount - definitely a case one or the other. The combination is unbearably harsh and noisy in a road car - takes away the effortless, muscular feeling the car should have on the road - probably a different story on track though....(?)

Not being about to strip out my poly subframe mounts I therefore have a set of RSS tarmac series engine mounts I need to sell on...

- PM me if interested or want to make an offer

Now this is very interesting coming from someone with poly bushes, good feedback 8)
good to know that the combo of poly subframe bushes and the rss mounts are a bit too much, exactly what i want to avoid.
Really just want to give it that little bit more but without going too far, subjective of course as you say. might PM you about the engine mounts....

can i ask if you have combined your suspension refresh with coil overs and/or uprated anti roll bars?