Buyers Advice wanted

[pinnerman]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and was looking for some advice. I have just had to turn down the offer of a very clean 996 due to it not being ULEZ compliant. This has led me to think about buying a 997. As you can imagine being in the London ULEZ zone most of my driving would be urban so a tiptronic might well be an option over manual but I remain open minded on this.

I am thinking of a pretty standard carrera 3.6 model (again being urban I don't see the 3.8 as a must have).

The question I have are as follows.
1. Do the 3.6 engines suffer from Bore Scoring - I have read conflicting articles that say its much less of an issue than on the 3.8.
2. l assume that a gen1 (which is what I am looking at) would still suffer from IMS issues so getting that changed would be something that I would need to factor in if it has not been changed.

Looking around on various site there are examples ranging from about 18k for a car with 70k on the clock. Would this be a fair price? I have a budget of up to about 22k give or take. Previously I had an Lancia Delta Integrale which although a nice car turned into a money pit and Id like to avoid this agin if at all possible.

Thanks in advance.

 

[JonnieD]

:welcome: here!

In answer to your questions:

1) Yes 3.6 engines are at risk of bore score, but lower percentage likelihood than the 3.8. Be aware though, Tiptronic cars are more at risk than manuals.

2) Look at the IMS situation based on which model you're looking at and when it was made. You'll find that opinion is divided on whether it should be replaced preventatively or not.

Overall, I'd say look for a car which has had a rebuild, you'll find quite a few up to and around £22K. Then there's no risk. Otherwise, make sure you have a contingency fund if you get unlucky and have to rebuild the engine.

Good luck,

Jonathan

 

[Gizmo750]

Also, don't forget that you can put an official Porsche warranty on a car with a full service history (after a qualifying period of ownership, 3 months from memory) once you get it through a 111 point check. Just as another option for peace of mind.
Edit: assuming it is less that 14 years old (i.e. can be warrantied up to its 15th birthday) and under 125,000 miles at the time the warranty is taken out.

 

[pinnerman]

:welcome: here!

In answer to your questions:

1) Yes 3.6 engines are at risk of bore score, but lower percentage likelihood than the 3.8. Be aware though, Tiptronic cars are more at risk than manuals.

2) Look at the IMS situation based on which model you're looking at and when it was made. You'll find that opinion is divided on whether it should be replaced preventatively or not.

Overall, I'd say look for a car which has had a rebuild, you'll find quite a few up to and around £22K. Then there's no risk. Otherwise, make sure you have a contingency fund if you get unlucky and have to rebuild the engine.

Good luck,

Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan.

So if I am correct then If I were to get a Borescope and this returned good results i.e no bore score I could find that scoring happens further down the line at any mileage? I had red that if it had not appeared by a certain mileage then you were good to go? I have to say that I was always put off rebuilds but fro what you are saying that's the way to go. What would stop scoring on a rebuild?

Thanks

Adam

 

[GMG]

...Hartech (Baz) recently stated on here that All 996/7s will eventually score their bores...matter of when and not if...

Buy one with a rebuilt engine...

If I were buying again I wouldn't contemplate buying without...it's simply not worth the risk...

 

[berni29]

Hi

Not all engine rebuilds are equal. You would need to know exactly what work was done and by who. Also just because the 996 came up as non complaint the ULEZ checker does not mean it isn't.

Plenty of people have obtained the CoC from Porsche and had the status of their 986/996 changed me included. Often its the missing NO3 figures on the V5 which puts them automatically in the non compliant category. It does depend on the age of the car though. Some of them do not have the NO3 figure explicitly stated on the CoC an you have to deduce it.

Look it up if you feel so inclined.

Plus you are not far of the price of a lower end 997.2 so why not think about one of those. A lot less worry.

All the best!

Berni

 

[glenwells]

you will read a lot and not all founded

From the stats easily available a small % of 997.1 cars have had the borescore issue.

Plenty of people driving around happy and oblivious to it.

From my earlier readings ( quite a lot), crystal balls, fortune tellers, reading the bones, and various messages from the gods and of course the least reliable source the internet I deduced the following:-

the engine block on the 3.6 and 3.8 are the same put the piston diameter is a bit smaller on the 3.6 so slightly thicker block walls?!. Also the manuals may be less prone due to less strain (low revs) on the engine - if higher gears are not chosen quite as quickly presumably.

From the above one could say a 3.6 manual could be a safer bet.

Other factors would of course include proper warm up cool down procedure for the engine. Regular maintenance and not waiting 2 years to change the oil in a high performance sports car. Also type, viscosity, and quality of the oil used. 8 Litres of Glug for £10 sir??

Vanishing down the rabbit hole yet??

Mileage plays a factor but all engines wear.

If I were in the market for a 997.1 choice in descending order--------------

1. 3.8 or 3.6 manual with FULL rebuild by Hartech or other high quality company
2. 3.6 manual with lowish mileage good history with evidence of that and a person who understands when you say' warm up procedure' and 'what viscosity oil do you prefer'! +++ PPI and borescope by someone who knows what they are looking at!
3. A manual 3.6 or 3.8 with reasonable mileage in good condition but at a haggled price factoring in a % of works costs down the line.
4. A 3.8 or 3.6 with a sooty exhaust and or slight ticking - definitely at a price with rebuild cost 6K - 10K deducted from the asking price or factored into it.

my opinion only.

Good hunting. Remember the buyer holds the cash and the seller wants it.
Also if it isn't 100% right for you it never will be. Follow your head not your heart it may mean walking away from a 'potential' car but that is probably for the best.

Regards
Glen

 

[JonnieD]

:welcome: here!

In answer to your questions:

1) Yes 3.6 engines are at risk of bore score, but lower percentage likelihood than the 3.8. Be aware though, Tiptronic cars are more at risk than manuals.

2) Look at the IMS situation based on which model you're looking at and when it was made. You'll find that opinion is divided on whether it should be replaced preventatively or not.

Overall, I'd say look for a car which has had a rebuild, you'll find quite a few up to and around £22K. Then there's no risk. Otherwise, make sure you have a contingency fund if you get unlucky and have to rebuild the engine.

Good luck,

Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan.

So if I am correct then If I were to get a Borescope and this returned good results i.e no bore score I could find that scoring happens further down the line at any mileage? I had red that if it had not appeared by a certain mileage then you were good to go? I have to say that I was always put off rebuilds but fro what you are saying that's the way to go. What would stop scoring on a rebuild?

Thanks

Adam

Hi Adam,

As GMG has already indicated, because there may be now bore scoring upon inspection, it definitely doesn't mean there won't be in the future. And as Hartech are saying, it probably will do so at some point in the future!

The reason a proper rebuild won't score again is due to the new liners used, as they don't wear the same way as the ones used by Porsche on the original M96/M97 engines. That's assuming the rebuild has been done correctly of course, any car that's had a rebuild should be checked to see who and how the work was done. All rebuilds are not equal!

 

[T8]

People have referred to what Bazhart (Hartech) has said.

Here's where he said it

Click here --> http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=141906&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

 

[pinnerman]

Thanks for all of your help. I have one last question about rebuilds, I am taking your advise and not ruling these out.

If an engine has had a rebuild what should I be looking for? As mentioned above, not all rebuilds are the same. I have found an 4s that looks interesting and it says it has had a full rebuild at 89k and they have all of the bills. I would still look to get a full PPI on top. Also the fact that its had a rebuild should that in essence kind of zero the millage to some extent? The car has over 100k on it now which is only 15k since the full rebuild. I guess what Im asking is should I go into this thinking of it as a 110k car or not??!

Sorry for so many newbie questions.

 

[T8]

Sadly it would still be regarded as a 110k mile car. A lot of the components will still have done that mileage and most people won't look past the odometer in any case.

As a purchase the fact that it has a rebuilt engine is good news but the buying price shouldn't be that much more than a car with an original engine.

If the price is right and it passes inspection it could be a good buy.

 

[cottlad]

My 2penneth. I've been in this situation for a few months now, looking for a bargain 997 with lowish miles to try and avoid the borescore and bearing issues. It's pointless IMHO as you can end up spending hundreds on PPI's and borecopes and still not find the right on.
I've just found a great car and borescore was an issue. It's going to cost 8k to put right but that was factored into my price and I now have a feeling of utter relief and confidence that I'm going to get a great car once the work has been completed in a few weeks.
Other than that, I would have gone for 1 that has already had a Hartech rebuild incl. bearing.
The guy I bought mine off has had a horror story, when the IMS went a few weeks after he bought it and now the borescoring has chipped another huge chunk off it's value.
Only risk getting 1 that isn't done if you don't mind living with the knowledge that there is a very real chance of very expensive issues just around every corner. Not the way I wanted to 'enjoy' my first Porsche.
My mind is at rest now and I'm super excited for when she arrives

PS... my other option was a midnight blue 997.1 with around 70k miles IIRC. Had the 3pot rebuild at Hartech and was a lovely car. He wanted £22k

 

[pinnerman]

Sadly it would still be regarded as a 110k mile car. A lot of the components will still have done that mileage and most people won't look past the odometer in any case.

As a purchase the fact that it has a rebuilt engine is good news but the buying price shouldn't be that much more than a car with an original engine.

If the price is right and it passes inspection it could be a good buy.

Hey, so my question about the 110k miles isn't really a concern for an onward sales as my plan would be to hold on to this car for my own fun. Really what I am after knowing is should 110k miles be a concern? I know there will always be ongoing work and that is fine but at what sort of millage can the engines no longer be maintained or would the engine be fine and act like a 15k (although its not) engine due to the rebuild.

Adam

 

[T8]

It all depends upon the extent and quality of the rebuild and longevity will always be subject to the right ongoing maintainance.

All being well the rebuilt engine should last as long as the original.

 

[Cannop]

Thanks for all of your help. I have one last question about rebuilds, I am taking your advise and not ruling these out.

If an engine has had a rebuild what should I be looking for? As mentioned above, not all rebuilds are the same. I have found an 4s that looks interesting and it says it has had a full rebuild at 89k and they have all of the bills. I would still look to get a full PPI on top. Also the fact that its had a rebuild should that in essence kind of zero the millage to some extent? The car has over 100k on it now which is only 15k since the full rebuild. I guess what Im asking is should I go into this thinking of it as a 110k car or not??!

Sorry for so many newbie questions.

As well as bucketloads of cars on their original engines I looked at two cars with rebuilt engines when I was in the market for a 997 (well actually three as I bought the third one).

The first two were in dealers showrooms advertised as having had full engine rebuilds with all associated paperwork. It turned out one had only had one cylinder replaced and the other had two cylinders done and neither by Hartech. Both dealers had just used their go to mechanics who it appeared had done the minimum to stop the engines burning oil and smoking. In both cases all associated paperwork was a vague hand written invoice on headed paper.

It seemed to me that a full rebuild isn't always as advertised, especially when buying from a dealer!