997 GTS Coolant Leak - Photos attached

[squelch]

Having not moved for many months and due an MOT and service imminently, I thought I'd take advantage of the nice weather yesterday and took the GTS round the block. Feeling all smug that it started without so much as a rattle, cough or lengthy cranking, I had a quick pootle around just enough to put a smile on my face and get the fluids up to temp and then put it away again.

And here endeth my smugness. After putting it back in the garage I noticed coolant on the floor. I put a drip tray underneath and upon checking today it seems no more has come out. Presumably this is because without the engine running there's no pressure to push it out.

Below are some pics of where it's coming from - I think that's the pipe heading to the water pump housing (possibly part number 9A1 106 238 00).

Does anyone know if it's likely that just the gasket has failed or do we think the tube itself has become deformed...? And either way, how easy a fix is it? Access looks good (famous last words!)

Any input / advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[easternjets]

If it's coming from the pump area then it'll be the pump itself. They are a Pierburg part and the cheapest place I found one was Autodoc. They do fail so it's not an unknown fault, obviously check hoses and clips first but it'll more than likely be the pump.
They can be a bit of sod to do, so if you know a good garage approach them to get an idea of cost.
I did my 997 turbo water pump and it took days to strip the rear down and get the pump out, most of the time is taken up getting rusted nuts and bolts off/out, Porsche seem to use a selection of 'chocolate and cheese' to make their nuts and bolts!
Great sense of satisfaction when you change it and save probably a grand!!
I drove my car for weeks before getting it done, the pump is a very basic impeller design and it's the shaft seal that's leaking so don't worry too much about it causing long term damage.

 

[squelch]

Thanks. I did wonder if it was the pump but couldn't see any evidence of it running down from higher up - just the area at bottom. I'll have to fire it up and have a closer look...

 

[deMort]

Im Afraid its probably Not the water pump but the actual pipe that's leaking .. i feel the pump is an easier job !

I've not yet had the pleasure of removing this pipe so i can't say for sure but it looks like a bit of a mission to remove .

As per the image below .. there is a gasket ( rubber ) inside of it .. i assume its corrosion that causes a leak like the usual rubber pipe connections but as said .. i've not yet pulled one of these apart to see .

I've seen a handful of these cars leak from that pipe though .

 

[squelch]

Thanks deMort. Although reading "it looks like a bit of a mission" from you seems like hearing Carol Vorderman say "Ooh, I'll need a calculator for this one!" Eek!

Saturday was the first time the car has been started for around 8 months or so.

If I remove the bolts, do you think there's much play in the pipe (I'm not sure what material it is) for me to hook out the old gasket / o-ring and slot in a new one or is that vastly wishful thinking? Obviously I'll get drenched in the process....

 

[FZP]

Sounds like sandpaper, no lube job Matt. fingers crossed its not.

 

[deMort]

You won't be able to move the pipe if you undo the X3 bolts .. image i posted was of the housing being removed from this pipe .

It's a big job and Not a diy job im afraid ... also going to be expensive .. i would guess at 5 hrs .. so £500 at least in just labour costs.

Ok so that's the bad news ..

Watch this video .. https://youtu.be/I75vR7ctTuA

This leak is far worse than yours and it was fixed by some modified parts ..

It turns out this pipe distorts with heat over time and doesn't seal ..

You fit a clamp bar and some new bolts .. apparently it's quite successful but not in every case .. basically it's this or a new mortgage but this does seem to work .

The part numbers ..

9PA110633800 .. Retaining bracket .

9A700812900 Bolts and you need X3 .

Image below of the finished job.

Undo the coolant cap to release any pressure then do it back up and fit the parts .

Now then i,m not going to take credit for this as its down to my colleague .. he has his own business .. https://www.rd9.co.uk/rd2u but works for us on a part time basis .. Ex Gold Tech so further up the tree than i was and he's done a couple of these .

If this works .. then you need to do a write up please ..

Also Ryan drinks larga but then thats because hes uncouth lol , cider is far nicer !

 

[paul_mck]

not to sound like a hack merchant but would some JB Weld stop the weep? Feels like something cheap to try before taking drastic measures and replacing the pipe especially if its a mission

 

[squelch]

Thanks deMort - awesome input as always!

I'll get those parts ordered. Couple of quick questions - do you happen to know the tightening torque for those bolts? And also, I was thinking about applying a little gentle heat with a heat gun just to allow a little "flex" in the pipe before tightening the clamp - any risks of doing this that you can think of at all?

Interestingly I found a discussion about the 991 having a similar issue and someone's mentioned that Porsche has actually revised the pipe to include a collar / clamp to hold it in place (pics attached). It seems the pipe is plastic so I guess the fact that mine hasn't started for many months means it's not had the benefit of regular heat cycles and has become brittle / inflexible and punished me for its lack of use!

Paul_mck, I do have some JB Weld "Extreme Heat" somewhere and did wonder about that or similar, as I'm not sure how effective it is on plastic. I'll have to dig it out and see what it says. To be fair, if it suits the material then I could be tempted to smear a little across the joint anyway. If it works, it works. :thumb:

I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to get on it, but I'll definitely take some pics and report back... fingers crossed.

Thanks all! This forum is the best! :thumb:

 

[Luddite]

squelch, you had me out lying on my back in the cold garage looking to see where the other end of that pipe terminated to try to see what you may be up against, and in the process discovered there are possible issues lying in wait for me..? See attached pic. Apologies for the quality as I used a GoPro and took a still from a vid but hopefully you get the idea..?

While under there I took a brass brush to the crud build up around the metal pipe connection to the pump in the same area further to that I used a small sharp screwdriver to scrape the majority of the surface crud out from around the point of connection, then gave it a spray of ACF50 in the hope of holding back the advance of corrosion.

I will be very interested to see that which you might come up against in the process of removing those three rather corroded fixings holding the pipe flange to the pump squelch.. Keeping my fingers crossed for you there.

I note that the additional flange bracing in the close up which deMort posted looks like it can be fitted without removal of the pipe, and if it is a Porsche supplied interim attempt as a possible in situ fix, then perhaps that may be why it does not cover the whole flange..? It would be interesting to see if the later Porsches have a brace that fits round the whole of the flange, as may be the case in the pics you posted squelch..?

With deMort suggesting five hours for the task to be performed by those well used to working on Porsches of the type.... I`m guessing that would involve a requirement to remove the pump to replace the whole pipe with whatever the latest issue part might be...? Other than that if you can remove the flange fixings I and fit the extra support with the cut away and without disturbing too much... I would think that well worth a try... ?

If it came to requiring to pay for five hours of labour, I think dependant on age/mileage, I might bite the bullet and replace the pump and any suspect items so related while in there...?

Best of luck squelch.. :thumb:

 

[deMort]

I'm Afraid i have no idea of a torque setting for these .. i have no instructions for this job and only learned about it via Ryan.

To be honest though .. you do them up tight .. we torque certain bolts but most things are done by hand .. i know if a bolt is tight enough .. if it's going to snap etcetera .. i'm sure you will be fine .

Personally .. i would just fit the clamp and do it up with no heat or external sealant .. run the car to temp .. if possible and without causing burns to yourself then a nip up of the bolts when its hot .

This job will either work or not work .. hence just fit it and prove rather than hiding it under sealant etc if you see what i mean .. prove its fixed then add sealant if you wish .

The pipe goes into the water pump at the back .. to get at all the fixings you basically need to remove the engine carrier .. the pump .. the coolant housing then you can get at this pipe ..

Do the bracket and go from there with no heat is my suggestion .

 

[squelch]

Sorry for giving you anxiety Luddite, (seems odd referring to someone as Luddite when talking about fixing machinery - oh the irony lol).

Thanks for guidance re torque setting, deMort - just thought I'd check if there was one before I default to FT. And yes, good call on doing just the clamp - be an interesting experiment to see how effective it is before going all "belt & braces" on it.

Fingers crossed it works. I did wonder if a two piece design, with a stepped overlap at the bolt hole positions, would give a more even all round clamp on the flange, but given that Porsche had already blown the budget on the toffee bolts and exhaust fixings they've probably got nothing left for development! It is feasible of course that their studies have shown that the failure mode is only the lower part so their flange will be fine.... hopefully!! Eeeek!

Anyway, here's what I thought it could look like - it's a bit Dali-esque so could do with a melting clock or two but I'll send it to Porsche and await the job offers... At least I used the right pencil! :floor:

 

[deMort]

Your idea seems a good one to me .. not having done this job then i'm unsure if there is the clearance on the top side or even if the shape is the same way around is all i can think of .

You can actually let me know whats its like if you don't mind as i doubt ill see one in many years ..

My thinking though and my reasoning for asking you to do a post on these ... there will be more in the future and if people can search and find your post in years to come it will certainly help out .

Same reason i make the odd post which rarely gets commented on .. im putting it there for the future ....... As i know it will be useful at some point !

 

[squelch]

I have a busy week next week so not sure how quickly I'll get on it but I will certainly take some pics and report back. Thanks again for all the input.

Parts ordered today. Swear words and grazed knuckles on back order - due in soon!

 

[Luddite]

Looking forward to reading you have resolved your leak issue.. I like your drawing and design skills, good thinking that man.. (-:

BTW In truth I suspect I may be more accurately categorised as a "selective" Luddite.. (-: I guess as a child of the "make do and mend generation" my frustrations began to show with the emergence of the throw away society. Increasing built in obsolescence, and growing technology lock-outs to restrict/prevent DIY in so many areas of life, making for an ever more dependant customer base, so much so that while Americans may have the right to bear arms, they are currently struggling to create "right to repair to repair" legislation and brought into law...! I think the EU sorted that out to some degree a few years back..

Kinda makes me wonder if in time the simplicity of design and quality built into air cooled will in time become ever more appreciated as the exponential increase in complexity that came with digitisation may begin to fail... Though the increase in bio in fuel seems to be an impending issue...

Currently very much enjoying my water cooled and rather hi-tec Porsche, with no current (and understandable) right to repair, as I bought into being dependant on a Porsche extended warranty terms and conditions..

More irony perhaps... :?: :floor: