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MJA911
Sepang


Joined: 10 Dec 2013
Posts: 2883
Location: Berkshire

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:42 pm    Post subject: Know your (new) rights when being a car from a dealer.... Reply with quote

Just reading this in a newsletter from Warranty Direct...I'm sure most know this, but there are threads from owners who have bought a car from a dealer who don't seem to know how strong their hand is...


The Consumer Rights Act 2015 has recently been introduced. However, new data from the RAC shows just one in 20 (5%) motorists are aware of the new law that gives anyone buying a vehicle significantly more protection if it turns out to be faulty.

The RAC believes the new law will strengthen the hand of buyers who think they have been mis-sold a used car or if a fault is revealed within the first 30 days. The new ‘short-term right to reject’ provision allows the buyer to demand a full refund – previously the dealer could simply replace or repair a faulty item or part.

Up to six months from the original date of sale, the dealer will be obliged to repair or replace the faulty part, and will only have one opportunity to fix the problem. If a repair or replacement is not possible or unsuccessful, the buyer will still be able to demand a reduced price or exercise their ‘final right to reject’, and demand full or partial repayment.

New research from the RAC’s Opinion Panel found that 95% of respondents were unaware of the new law. Of those that did know about it, just 30% correctly identified that the law came into force on 1 October 2015.

Despite the changes, four in 10 (39%) said they felt the new law would do nothing to change their confidence when purchasing their next used car, underlining the continuing deep-rooted mistrust of dealers.

However, the RAC warns that after six months the onus will be on the buyer to prove there is a fault with their vehicle, and that it was present at the time of sale. Motorists therefore need to be clear on their rights.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17707
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The beauty of this is the dealer is the one with the headache and not the buyer. They act like they're doing you a favour when the say 'we'll put a 6 month warranty on it sir', when in reality, they're washing their hands of the sale and passing the buck on to you.
This is great for car purchasers because when they say 'we'll put a six month......', you can just smile politely and say - no thank you Wink
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medicus
Albert Park


Joined: 21 Oct 2014
Posts: 1517



PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
The beauty of this is the dealer is the one with the headache and not the buyer. They act like they're doing you a favour when the say 'we'll put a 6 month warranty on it sir', when in reality, they're washing their hands of the sale and passing the buck on to you.
This is great for car purchasers because when they say 'we'll put a six month......', you can just smile politely and say - no thank you Wink


thats true Thumb
heres a flip thats doing the rounds in the trade already, some purchasers are buying a high end car (range rover etc) driving round europe, road trips, holidays etc, then pulling the MAF sensor off the car to through an engine management light, then giving it back to the supplier (who fixes the fault..clears the light) then the customer pulls the MAF again, and can "legally" back the car for a full refund, no matter how many miles its racked up.

you could pull this if after a few months of ownership if you find a better/cheaper car, not the dealers fault, but he will suffer the burden.

two sides to this, its great for genuine cases to protect the buyer, but harsh and open to abuse from unscrupulous buyers for the seller (trade)
 
  
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richard10002
Newbie


Joined: 14 Aug 2014
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To reject a car for a refund, it was my understanding that you have to deliver it back to the dealer, with keys and paperwork, reject it, and demand the refund.... at which point, you have no car Sad

When the dealer starts to wriggle and make excuses, delaying, or refusing the refund, your recourse is to take them to court.... you still have no car Sad

So unless you can afford to buy another car, whilst you hope that you eventually get your money back on the first car, likely after several months, and stressful legal action, the dealer knows that you are unlikely to choose this option.

For the ordinary Joe, versus the even slightly unscrupulous dealer, the law remains an ass.

IMHO
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17707
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That may be so but it's a thousand times better than the law before it.
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7716
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NB the final para of the OP... the buyer has to prove the fault was present at the time of sale. Good luck with that.

Personally, I'd still rather have a 3rd party warranty for 6 months
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richard10002
Newbie


Joined: 14 Aug 2014
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
NB the final para of the OP... the buyer has to prove the fault was present at the time of sale.


That is for faults that appear after 6 months, so your 3 month or 6 month third party warranty has ended in any case, assuming it was actually worth the paper it was written on in the first place Sad
 
  
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7716
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely it can't be expected for a dealer to make good any faults that occur after the point of sale? Fair enough if it was an existing fault, but this new rule means every car sold is an open ended liability.

It could mean no dealer will touch a car outside of manufacturers warranty in the end, all buyers will have to go private with no consumer protection at all, no PX etc.
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996ttalot
Approved Trader


Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 1520
Location: Horley Gatwick


PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Know your (new) rights when being a car from a dealer... Reply with quote

MJA911 wrote:
Just reading this in a newsletter from Warranty Direct...I'm sure most know this, but there are threads from owners who have bought a car from a dealer who don't seem to know how strong their hand is...


The Consumer Rights Act 2015 has recently been introduced. However, new data from the RAC shows just one in 20 (5%) motorists are aware of the new law that gives anyone buying a vehicle significantly more protection if it turns out to be faulty.

The RAC believes the new law will strengthen the hand of buyers who think they have been mis-sold a used car or if a fault is revealed within the first 30 days. The new ‘short-term right to reject’ provision allows the buyer to demand a full refund – previously the dealer could simply replace or repair a faulty item or part.

Up to six months from the original date of sale, the dealer will be obliged to repair or replace the faulty part, and will only have one opportunity to fix the problem. If a repair or replacement is not possible or unsuccessful, the buyer will still be able to demand a reduced price or exercise their ‘final right to reject’, and demand full or partial repayment.

New research from the RAC’s Opinion Panel found that 95% of respondents were unaware of the new law. Of those that did know about it, just 30% correctly identified that the law came into force on 1 October 2015.

Despite the changes, four in 10 (39%) said they felt the new law would do nothing to change their confidence when purchasing their next used car, underlining the continuing deep-rooted mistrust of dealers.

However, the RAC warns that after six months the onus will be on the buyer to prove there is a fault with their vehicle, and that it was present at the time of sale. Motorists therefore need to be clear on their rights.


I think the RAC have over simplified the 30 day rule. The car can only be rejected if the fault existed when the customer took the car, which is different to a fault then happening within a 30 day period.

To ensure dealer protection, we have signed up several dealers prior and since this date. Every Porsche they buy comes to us - we do a full PPI on the car listing all the faults - the dealer fixes all mandatory faults and on the report we provide it lists all advisories. So for example one we did today has slight corrosion on the inner faces of all discs - that is an advisory.

Therefore the buyer buys the car from the dealer, with a list of all advisories. The dealer has a signed PPI from us, which is given to the buyer.

I think in the end it offers a better car to the buyer which is good news, and long term will probably remove a lot of non compliant garages.

My dealers who are sending me cars every other day have one rule - for god sake don't miss anything Very Happy

Ken
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badlands
Montreal


Joined: 05 Feb 2015
Posts: 525
Location: London


PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doesn't your average 6 month RAC warranty cost the dealer something like £35? Worth less than the paper it's written on - don't fool for it as reassurance...know your rights and don't in any way view this as a safety blanket!
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Jcx
Estoril


Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 3876


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Know your (new) rights when being a car from a dealer... Reply with quote

996ttalot wrote:
MJA911 wrote:
Just reading this in a newsletter from Warranty Direct...I'm sure most know this, but there are threads from owners who have bought a car from a dealer who don't seem to know how strong their hand is...


The Consumer Rights Act 2015 has recently been introduced. However, new data from the RAC shows just one in 20 (5%) motorists are aware of the new law that gives anyone buying a vehicle significantly more protection if it turns out to be faulty.

The RAC believes the new law will strengthen the hand of buyers who think they have been mis-sold a used car or if a fault is revealed within the first 30 days. The new ‘short-term right to reject’ provision allows the buyer to demand a full refund – previously the dealer could simply replace or repair a faulty item or part.

Up to six months from the original date of sale, the dealer will be obliged to repair or replace the faulty part, and will only have one opportunity to fix the problem. If a repair or replacement is not possible or unsuccessful, the buyer will still be able to demand a reduced price or exercise their ‘final right to reject’, and demand full or partial repayment.

New research from the RAC’s Opinion Panel found that 95% of respondents were unaware of the new law. Of those that did know about it, just 30% correctly identified that the law came into force on 1 October 2015.

Despite the changes, four in 10 (39%) said they felt the new law would do nothing to change their confidence when purchasing their next used car, underlining the continuing deep-rooted mistrust of dealers.

However, the RAC warns that after six months the onus will be on the buyer to prove there is a fault with their vehicle, and that it was present at the time of sale. Motorists therefore need to be clear on their rights.


I think the RAC have over simplified the 30 day rule. The car can only be rejected if the fault existed when the customer took the car, which is different to a fault then happening within a 30 day period.

To ensure dealer protection, we have signed up several dealers prior and since this date. Every Porsche they buy comes to us - we do a full PPI on the car listing all the faults - the dealer fixes all mandatory faults and on the report we provide it lists all advisories. So for example one we did today has slight corrosion on the inner faces of all discs - that is an advisory.

Therefore the buyer buys the car from the dealer, with a list of all advisories. The dealer has a signed PPI from us, which is given to the buyer.

I think in the end it offers a better car to the buyer which is good news, and long term will probably remove a lot of non compliant garages.

My dealers who are sending me cars every other day have one rule - for god sake don't miss anything Very Happy

Ken


I think that's a fabulous and entrepreneurial response you are taking Ken. And great for the consumer.
 
  
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richard10002
Newbie


Joined: 14 Aug 2014
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
Surely it can't be expected for a dealer to make good any faults that occur after the point of sale? Fair enough if it was an existing fault, but this new rule means every car sold is an open ended liability.

It could mean no dealer will touch a car outside of manufacturers warranty in the end, all buyers will have to go private with no consumer protection at all, no PX etc.


Even before these new regulations, it was the case that any faults occuring within the first 6 months were deemed to have existed at the point of sale. Whether car buyers were aware of this in volume is unlikely, and whether they could beat the wriggling dealer if they were aware, is a moot point.
 
  
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richard10002
Newbie


Joined: 14 Aug 2014
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Know your (new) rights when being a car from a dealer... Reply with quote

996ttalot wrote:

To ensure dealer protection, we have signed up several dealers prior and since this date. Every Porsche they buy comes to us - we do a full PPI on the car listing all the faults - the dealer fixes all mandatory faults and on the report we provide it lists all advisories. So for example one we did today has slight corrosion on the inner faces of all discs - that is an advisory.

Therefore the buyer buys the car from the dealer, with a list of all advisories. The dealer has a signed PPI from us, which is given to the buyer.

I think in the end it offers a better car to the buyer which is good news, and long term will probably remove a lot of non compliant garages.

My dealers who are sending me cars every other day have one rule - for god sake don't miss anything Very Happy

Ken


Any chance of naming the said dealers - I should have the money to buy a 996 over the next few months, and it would be good to know that it had been thoroughly checked, and major issues fixed.
 
  
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F15HAR
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 30 Aug 2013
Posts: 357
Location: Utrecht N.L & Northumberland U.K


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As with all legislation, evidential proof is everything....what the law states and what powers it provides the consumer is one thing, following it up and achieving a successful lawful outcome should something go wrong is something very different indeed.
The introduction of new consumer powers is great on paper, but putting them into practise ?
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arry
Imola


Joined: 02 May 2015
Posts: 753
Location: South Essex


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

F15HAR wrote:
As with all legislation....

The introduction of new consumer powers is great on paper, but putting them into practise ?


Indeed.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted


Upon my early morning read it would seem:
1) There's still no immediate rights to rejection - it's still locked to satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described so you'd need to have solid evidence of at least one of those

If you took satisfactory quality as an example:
The quality of goods is satisfactory if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would consider satisfactory, taking account of—

(a)any description of the goods,

(b)the price or other consideration for the goods

And then you'll notice the caveats:

The term mentioned in subsection (1) does not cover anything which makes the quality of the goods unsatisfactory—

(a)which is specifically drawn to the consumer’s attention before the contract is made,

(b)where the consumer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal

So, a test drive then....

Having rights is good - but having the argument in exercising them isn't quite as chipper.
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