new forum member- Hi!

[GT4]

Nice comments thanks and im happy to take any advice.
Only question i do have as such not having driven one is which is more fun to drive the 2 or 4?have read somewhere that the 4 will understeer less out of bends? Im used to driving a mid engined torquey rwd car with Quaife diff and no traction control or assistance and no p/s. It will lift off oversteer at the drop of a hat and will power oversteer at will. I'm thinking a 2 might be more fun ?or not much to choose
?
Or big can of worms lol?

I would suggest you drive both (all four?)

Although that somewhat assumes they are equally well set up.

But to pull back the lid, I would say the AWD has better weight distribution (less front end bob, unless that's your bag)

Plus is gets red/clear indicators over RWD amber and titanium (silver) calipers vs black, amongst other things (WB get reds).

AWD get standard LSD (although this far down the road it is likely just ballast by now), but the ABD (traction control) will still work.

Both features were cost options on the 2WDs, standard on RS, GT2.

If Tip is your thing, only RWD offered it.

 

[ChrisT70]

Nice comments thanks and im happy to take any advice.
Only question i do have as such not having driven one is which is more fun to drive the 2 or 4?have read somewhere that the 4 will understeer less out of bends? Im used to driving a mid engined torquey rwd car with Quaife diff and no traction control or assistance and no p/s. It will lift off oversteer at the drop of a hat and will power oversteer at will. I'm thinking a 2 might be more fun ?or not much to choose
?
Or big can of worms lol?

I would suggest you drive both (all four?)

Although that somewhat assumes they are equally well set up.

But to pull back the lid, I would say the AWD has better weight distribution (less front end bob, unless that's your bag)

Plus is gets red/clear indicators over RWD amber and titanium (silver) calipers vs black, amongst other things (WB get reds).

AWD get standard LSD (although this far down the road it is likely just ballast by now), but the ABD (traction control) will still work.

Both features were cost options on the 2WDs, standard on RS, GT2.

If Tip is your thing, only RWD offered it.

I understand the 4wd are mainly rear biased anyway? Are they still a bit tail happy if pushed?

 

[Outliar]

Hi Chris. Thought I'd chip in on the AWD debate, as my 993 is a C4. I've driven a few RWD 911s (964, 993, 911SC, 911S 2.4) but only for short distances, and it was a while ago. But the feeling, if memory serves me well, was noticeably different and I guess you'll have a preference for one or the other. But I rather think the debate is really one of "head over heart" - let me explain.

When I was looking for my car, I was vaguely looking for a RWD based on all the stuff you read about these cars being better on track and have the 'correct' bobbing, loose front end feel. Objectively speaking, I didn't really know what I was talking (or thinking) about from first hand experience other than a few short drives.

The C4 happened to be the first really nice car I saw, and so I went for it (buy on condition and all that; plus there was a queue of people wanting to see/buy it and I happened to get there first!). No regrets. The front end feel is just right, lovely direct steering and very planted. The only potential negative is that they are less tail happy (AWD means just that) - the tail will try and step out if provoked (I was on worn rear tyres, damp road, accelerating enthusiastically off a roundabout) but the fronts quickly step in and pull you through. Odd feeling, very effective BUT not to everyone's taste I guess. Most of the time 95% of the power is going to the rear wheels, so you will only feel this when the rear starts to slip. But a petrolhead might feel that's too much interference with the driving pleasure.

Conventional wisdom says a connoisseur's only option is a tail happy "real 911" as that's how it should be... on a wet road I'm not sure I'd rather be in a C2, but in the dry possibly. On track, I don't know - but from what I've read, probably.

All this is academic though if you can't find a good C2/C2S. I took the practical route, and ended up with a C4 but frankly would have been happy with either.

Then there's the suspension thing, which I'm looking into now (see my post entitled "Nitron suspension kits" - which turned into a bike thread as well :wink: ). I've read that the 993 is very sensitive to set up, and C4s can be set up to handle very nicely on track. I'm currently exploring that one...

Best of luck.

 

[madalaa]

Hi there Chris and welcome.

I did a Cat Driver training at Milbrook a couple of years back in the dry and couldn't get the back to step out on the dry round skid pan.

I have only ever felt the rear end go "light" once and that was coming round a 360 degree slip road in the wet.

The C4 is really an awesome car for the winter month here in the UK and one can really push on in adverse conditions on the B road "twisties".

When I bought my car I wasn't specifically looking for a C4. Even back in 2007 one had to be quick off the mark to buy a goodish 993, they didn't hang around for long at any of the major Indie Dealerships. It's even worse now.

Good luck with your search.

 

[Outliar]

I have seen a YouTube clip of a 964 C4 drifting on track, but couldn't find it. So here are some others a quick google search surfaced... I thought they might be of interest for your research purposes!

The 964 had a more crude AWD system, with more Power diverted to the front more of the time. Perhaps that's where the C2 preference as a driver's car came from? But they can be setup well as I understand it. Perhaps the owner of the yellow 964 C4 in the video below has fettle with his?

The 993 as I'm sure you know has a much lighter setup up front, so is less nose heavy. I'm no expert, but I believe it operates by detecting rear slip through the change in viscosity of the oil in the coupling, which increases with heat (faster rotation from slip heats the oil) and thus the front wheel drive is progressively engaged. I probably havent described this accurately. I think I have read that it has 95% rear power most of the time.

All that said, it rather depends how you drive the car. On track, I'm sure a C4 will give pleasure, and can be drifted if you have the commitment required. You've probably seen Tiff drifting a 993 turbo on YouTube. The feel and driver control of RWD on track is no doubt superior in the right hands, in the dry.

Here are some videos to give an idea: none of course have any bearing on the road experience, for any sane driver! You can sort of see in the 993 clip how it needs to be coaxed to break traction, witht front trying to pull out of a slide.

993 in the Dry:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ulJn9HeuVU

974 C4 in the dry:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MHUplFL_yy0

 

[GT4]

The AWD is basically RWD for it entire life until it ceases to be RWD.

By that I mean it only attempts FWD traction once RWD is lost (which is when you want something to help you out, because the rear ain't doing diddly at that point, apart from directing you to the nearest ditch).

There is a continuous 5% torque bleed to the front drive shafts, but the effect of this really is just to feel like it's following its line better (like slightly pulling you out of a corner steering wise, whilst accelerative thrust is still applied from the rear).

Of course, all Turbos from 993 onwards became AWD simply because they would have been slower without (and with such high torque, possibly absolutely slower than their NA counterparts in some circumstances, as they just sit there spinning their wheels rather than moving!)

NB: Porsche deliberately refer to it as AWD not 4WD, because it never directs equal drive to four wheels, but it can direct drive to ANY of its wheels.

 

[GT4]

PS - have a read of the Performance Car (effectively EVO) 993 range review below:

Article - Performance Car [March 1996] - UK 993 Range

(with thanks to jonttt, other files here: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=82579)

 

[Outliar]

The AWD is basically RWD for it entire life until it ceases to be RWD.

By that I mean it only attempts FWD traction once RWD is lost (which is when you want something to help you out, because the rear ain't doing diddly at that point, apart from directing you to the nearest ditch).

There is a continuous 5% torque bleed to the front drive shafts, but the effect of this really is just to feel like it's following its line better (like slightly pulling you out of a corner steering wise, whilst accelerative thrust is still applied from the rear).

Of course, all Turbos from 993 onwards became AWD simply because they would have been slower without (and with such high torque, possibly absolutely slower than their NA counterparts in some circumstances, as they just sit there spinning their wheels rather than moving!)

NB: Porsche deliberately refer to it as AWD not 4WD, because it never directs equal drive to four wheels, but it can direct drive to ANY of its wheels.

Thanks GT4 for clarifying the front/rear split thing.

I would just comment that in my posts I refer to the term "slip" because technically speaking, tyres begin to slip before they break loose. You are probably right though that with these older AWD systems (i.e. compared to current day, electronically controlled traction control) it's more akin to a 'save' safety device than optimising traction 100% of the time, and kicks in later than modern traction systems will (depending on the traction control setting selected, that sets the amount of slip-slide allowed).

On bikes on track, you will see the rear wheels of some bikes leaving black lines coming out of corners (usually in-line 4 1000s, not twins like mine, as they overwhelm the tyre sooner than a V-win does due to the nature of the faster firing pattern of 4 explosions rather than 2 from a twin). These bikes are sliding, but only imperceptively so, as obviously bikes tread a much finer line between power slide and being thrown off the track!

 

[Outliar]

PS - have a read of the Performance Car (effectively EVO) 993 range review below:

Article - Performance Car [March 1996] - UK 993 Range

(with thanks to jonttt, other files here: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=82579)

Thanks GT4, can't wait to read...

Blooming ell Jonttt, are you full time as a Porsche nut?! Fantastic resource, not that I needed more diversions - this forum thing is addictive :grin:

 

[GT4]

Personally, I find it easy to walk away.

In fact I'm hardly ever on here.

 

[Outliar]

Personally, I find it easy to walk away.

In fact I'm hardly ever on here.

:grin:

 

[GT4]

The AWD is basically RWD for it entire life until it ceases to be RWD.

By that I mean it only attempts FWD traction once RWD is lost (which is when you want something to help you out, because the rear ain't doing diddly at that point, apart from directing you to the nearest ditch).

There is a continuous 5% torque bleed to the front drive shafts, but the effect of this really is just to feel like it's following its line better (like slightly pulling you out of a corner steering wise, whilst accelerative thrust is still applied from the rear).

Of course, all Turbos from 993 onwards became AWD simply because they would have been slower without (and with such high torque, possibly absolutely slower than their NA counterparts in some circumstances, as they just sit there spinning their wheels rather than moving!)

NB: Porsche deliberately refer to it as AWD not 4WD, because it never directs equal drive to four wheels, but it can direct drive to ANY of its wheels.

Thanks GT4 for clarifying the front/rear split thing.

I would just comment that in my posts I refer to the term "slip" because technically speaking, tyres begin to slip before they break loose. You are probably right though that with these older AWD systems (i.e. compared to current day, electronically controlled traction control) it's more akin to a 'save' safety device than optimising traction 100% of the time, and kicks in later than modern traction systems will (depending on the traction control setting selected, that sets the amount of slip-slide allowed).

On bikes on track, you will see the rear wheels of some bikes leaving black lines coming out of corners (usually in-line 4 1000s, not twins like mine, as they overwhelm the tyre sooner than a V-win does due to the nature of the faster firing pattern of 4 explosions rather than 2 from a twin). These bikes are sliding, but only imperceptively so, as obviously bikes tread a much finer line between power slide and being thrown off the track!

I was being hyperbolic for simplicity and the imagery.

The drive transfer via VC only requires a speed differential between front and rear to begin proportionally distributing drive (between 5% default and 40% max, ie on complete loss of rear traction).

Therefore any slip or slide (as you describe) will promote further drive to the front of the vehicle (within 1/10 sec of differential being created).

The apportioning is smooth and analogue (ie not a binary switch).

 

[madalaa]

...... well apart from all that they are a bloody car when the weather ain't being kind and you need to push on .......

Actually they are just bloody good cars ....... full stop ......

 

[Outliar]

...... well apart from all that they are a bloody car when the weather ain't being kind and you need to push on .......

Actually they are just bloody good cars ....... full stop ......

Well summed up

 

[ChrisT70]

Brilliant replies thanks and some links to read or watch tonight much appreciated. I'm no driving god and i dont push it crazy hard on the roads but on the odd trackday i do like to have a play and get the back end out if poss and try and hold it nicely or at least spin safely trying
My T70 has a porsche g50 box with a quaife lsd i fitted and huge 335 30 18 rears so you have to be very comitted if you power oversteer it. It does like to trail brake or lift off oversteer and with a big lump of a v8 behind you there is a noticeable pendulum effect. I do love the rwd experience though.
My last road car with 4wd was a Celica GT4 ST205 with about 350bhp and was very easy to get the back end out with but still had good front traction to assist you pulling out of bends. It was a brilliant 4wd car tbh and i do miss it.

Main thing is i cant actually be too picky anyway due to the lack of good cars at reasonable money without paying dealer tax but this has been v helpful thanks