Looking for Answers: M96 engine failure

[apw2007]

August 2010: Letter

In Spain, in our Soloporsche.com community (the largest Spanish-speaking forum on the internet), we are trying to give up a solid step against the M96 engine failure.

First of all we are compiling several dozen examples of IMS failure, all of which are from soloporsche users, and we have started threads to obtain more information. Porsche AG workers have also had the chance to come into the discussion as anonymous users to explain the real percentages of failures and what they really know. (With Soloporsche admin checking the details of new users to avoid 'trolls').

So are the people suffering hysteria over the M96 engine failure? No, they are not.

We have a lot of friends with engine failure and we know that the M96 engine is a complete design error. Engineers in Porsche Motorsport division, and the mechanical experts have told us the real thing. Wendelin Wiedeking is principally responsible. He tried to raise Porsche's profits and develop a new platform (M96) to substitute the previous air-cooled family of engines. This engine was developed in half the time required and with half the budget. Porsche was in financial trouble and the Boxster and 996 were the two new models to be the angular stone for the new era of benefits. Low cost materials, an IMS that was never to be born (as the new DFI engines), misalignment shaft problems, different expansion coefficient materials, low cost aluminium frames, and a shaft that works in false steel case that is closed in twin-aluminium cases.

Engines derived from the GT1 block, as used in the GT3, GT3 RS, GT2 and Turbo were too expensive to produce in mass numbers. If Porsche had decided to produce a lighter version of this block to be used in the Carrera models, surely it would have been the best decision, because we would never have heard anything about blown engines. It would have also caused a huge decrease in Porsche's accounts due to the high cost of using this engine.

Porsche AG let this problem with the M96 engine run until it updated it for the M97 engine. It allowed 11 years to pass – so much time keeping the wrong thing. Meanwhile, there are a pile of blown engines in Porsche's history, and what's more, there is still a pile that are going to fail.
I prefer to listen to Porsche's experts, not urban legends. I'm a bit tired of reading that the failures are only a very small percentage, and what we have to do is to enjoy our cars. I've seen several failures with my own eyes! What would think if a Porsche expert told you the best thing to prevent the failure is to reinforce the IMS with a solid kit? (I'd like to point out that I don't sell anything myself and I don't have any commercial interest). But what can we do if we're out of warranty? Pay for a rebuild engine or throw away the car? Porsche should give us a new engine every time one fails.

As a Porsche community we are trying to compile more data so a number of Soloporsche users can take the matter further in the courts. Everyone knows that it's far too difficult to prove that it is a failed design, but we are very angry to read about yet another blown engine every week in our small Soloporsche community.

I enjoy driving my 996, I live it and I want to keep it for many years to come. I reinforced the IMS with a hand-made kit, use a race lubricant. With Solorporsche , an expert motor engineer is developing a solution to the problem but it won't be ready for awhile yet because it needs several tests, but if it works it should make the IMS 100 per cent fail-safe.

Nevertheless there are thousands of failures reported on Rennlist, Renntech, 6Speedonline, Pistonheads, Rennteam, and so on. We have also lost of articles published in Total 911, Excellence and GT Purely Porsche magazines talking about this problem.

We want results and to get this we need to combine the efforts of all those effected, so all contributions will be welcome.

Joaquin Fdez (Soloporsche Administrator)

http://www.soloporsche.com/showthread.php?p=590462

_________________
Andrew
993 C2 + 996 GT2

 

[mathamb]

As victim of engine failure (cracked liner) I can tell you that Porsche have no interest in aknowledging the problems or helping out of warranty.
As an owner of many aiir cooled cars (2 blown engines here too) I know it took them 26 years to get them to the "out of granite" build quality of the 993. and each time they changed it they created more problems (964 oil leaks , dual mass flywheel etc etc)
11 years to get the 996 right seems about right.
The problem is that everybody seems to think Porsche is the brand at the peak of engineering excellence. They are not. That is BMW.
Porsche is a company that produces an exciting model and then develops it as they go to get it right. And so the 997 gen 2 is just about there.
As you can see from my ownership I have always loved them (less so these days) and what other semi supercar can you drive everyday and run up tp 100k miles. Try doing that with a Ferrari or a lambo or a masserati...no chance
But yes Porshe should have behaved better; built all the engines on the GT1 bottom end with 26 years of development bhind it not 26 months (how much extra would it actually have cost 1-2k per car?) and fixed the problem with a design solution in 12 months not 12 years! (it took Autofarm and Hartech to sort it out here)
The only possibility would be to get all owners of failed engines to enter a class action against Porsche. But realistically its a) too late as each engine would have to have a detailed independent engineers report and b) too expensive as each owner would have to be willing to invest/lose far far more in legal costs than the cost of a brand new engine. And trust me Porsche would fight it all the way with very deep pockets
So recognise Porsche for what it is. Dont put it on a pedestal.But enjoy the generally reliable, high mileage, everyday driving experience it offers. .....Or get an M3.
I expect this will upset a few people so sorry in advance, but I had my first 911 when I was 26 and have had one pretty much ever since (now 59) and overall in any kind of objective assessment my BMW everyday drivers ( 3 M5s and 2 M3s plus others) have been far better designed and built cars.
But emotionally and as a driver my heart still belongs to the 911.............. Particularly that 964 Turbo 3.6.

 

[wizard993]

yyyyyyyawn!

 

[northpole]

Wizard
I wonder how much yawning you would do if you owned a normally aspirated non-GT3 996!!
I know what you are getting at - here we go again, etc - but I believe this to be one of the most significant issues Porsche has had to deal with. One which they have singularly failed to do so.
I really like 911's but if I get another it will have to be turbo or GT2/3 - if I can ever get to a position of affording the jump!!
Peter

 

[GT4]

I believe this to be one of the most significant issues Porsche has had to deal with. One which they have singularly failed to do so.

Well, apart from the proactive appearance of disinterest for about a decade, then a whole new engine sans IMS etc.

They dealt with it. Just not to your satisfaction.

If they brush it under the carpet long enough, say until the cars are approaching 10 years old and second-hand Mondeo money, then they will have succeeded.

Job well done.

 

[Ocean Blue]

Hi,
I keep on seeing this thread, and the Hartech one and ask the following:
I'm being serious here for once so no frivolity please.

If a Chartered mechanical engineer who's field of expertise is engines was taken on board to look at the problem and was able to access an actual few engines and have sight of previous examples or professional reports. On this basis provided the following happens:
1) The results are in favour of the boys.
2) He would publish his report into the respective Chartered society.
3) Be willing to stand up in court, which he should provided item 1 and item 2 are met.
4) Enlist fellow professional engineers for secondary and tertiary consultations who's views closely match the above.


What would be the problem with taking Porsche GB to task on it and perhaps eventually the courts? It would just take a few people to form a society, enlist disgruntled members and execute the exercise. Take around 2 - 5 years. provided Porsche are still around when big business has finished with them

I know Hartech are good and I am not questioning anybody's ability here but do they have chartered engineers?
I would say to all 996 members, engine fail or not, get yourselves teamed up for a game.

BMW may be doing well in some peoples eyes but check out their alloy wheel failure which they are trying to keep quiet.

Currently without doubt the land of the Rising sun has the best quality in terms of engineering. Not be confused with a good driving experience.

 

[GT4]

I see Toyota have recalled another 430,000 cars, this time for steering faults.

I suppose at least they have acknowledged the problem.

 

[wizard993]

yyyyaaaawwn 2

Simply do a search and you will find loads on here Peter to keep even the most hardened 911 investigator happy.....Its just that 1,000's on here are simply tired of discussing that old M96 "chestnut"....a chestnut that has been "bashed" to oblivion.

If anyone/any group thought that they had a good chance of suing Porsche they would have done it long before now. Even the lawsuit yanks wont tackle Porsche.

 

[wizard993]

"BMW may be doing well in some peoples eyes but check out their alloy wheel failure which they are trying to keep quiet. "

....and what about these M3's and CSL's that are eating camshafts and/or destroying valves?

 

[Ocean Blue]

Hi Wizard,
It's quite obvious there is a problem, and the Spanish look to be gearing up for something. I bought GTP yesterday and read the piece shown here.
Porsche are even changing the design on the latest generation engines to negate some of the past problems.
However,
If you do nothing, then nothing happens.
If you so something, something will happen, win or loose. It's chance you take. My thinking is that somewhere within Porsche.de are the original designs from the parts that have failed.
Take seal failure:
A chartered eng once focused on this will ask other seal and bearing manufacturers for a response for his report. If it can be shown not fit for purpose and the number of failures can be reconciled to demonstrate this then your have a start, only a start mind. As I say it's a long process.
I just wondered Wizard, if the problem is age old why are people not doing something as a collective.
On the issue of America I believe something might have been done but have not done any investigative work into Porsches largest & lucrative market. I don't live their and have no wish to.
Had no knowledge of the BMW M3 engine, I did fancy an E46 M3 as a hack though, nice piece of kit.

 

[apw2007]

The reliablity of the M96 engine will at some point (if not already) deter people buying a second hand 996 if no warranty is available. Even buying with a warranty is no comfort, if when it comes time to sell the warranty is no longer renewable because of the cars age. It would seem when buying a 996 it might be wise to factor in the cost of a new engine as precaution - time will tell how that will impact on resale values.

But in the mean time Porsche AG have successfully made the jump from a low to high volume car manufacturer (and I suspect a large part of this success is due to the reliability of the 993) and in the process left a few disgruntled owners by the wayside.

If enough of those disgruntled owners link together (the internet makes that more likely) they could impact on Porsche's resale market. And it's unlikely that a buyer of a new Porsche will differentiate between the 996 and 997 so it has the potential to have a knock-on effect to Porsche's new sales.

Have Porsche fallen off their pedestal :?:

 

[GT4]

I think you mean "pedalstool". :wink:

Irrespective of the fact there is or isn't "evidence" in Porsche (which by the way is private property and commercial in confidence and unlikely to be seized without an alleged criminal act, and has been subject to dozens of kaizen improvements over the model cycle anyway without any implied engineering incompetence), the problem is no one will follow this through as it costs money and time.

The cars are worth as little as a sixth or less of their original invoice price, and the average hold time (period of ownership) for a model is probably only one or two years.

By the time anything may have started, the cars will have been traded in.

This isn't Erin Brockovich, no-one has been crippled for life or died of negligence.

In fact even if plans were found of a dodgy seal (as defined by some curious industry peer review), so what? Most engines don't go boom, so statistically they are fit for purpose.

People should first look to sue Citroà«n/Renault/Peugeot/Fiat because they can't design a wiring loom that consistently connects from the battery to the [fill in name of electronic gizmo] and BMW for letting a donkey with a marker pen design nauseatingly bad "flame surfacing" for almost a decade.

Anyone with a working 996 would, frankly, be better off toeing the company line and keeping schtum. That way there is a high chance of retaining some semblance of used values and only a minuscule chance of losing out on a Porsche pay-day when Stuttgart sends out a £10k cheque and an apology to every 996 owner.

I think people have got a bit over excited by the "successful" effect of all the new-media hysteria, and the ensuing freebie rubber-band outcome in the Apple "Antennagate".

 

[mmalbon]

hear hear, I'm sick of hearing about 996 engines being so unreliable. All this talk does is devalue our cars !!

Lots more 996s have been sold than other 911 models, so a small percentage adds up to more cars, so the problem seems worse.

Lots of people only go on forums to moan about problems. There are a lot of people who have owned, or still own, 996s that haven't broken who don't post on forums to say that the car is working fine.

 

[wizard993]

Hi Wizard,
It's quite obvious there is a problem, and the Spanish look to be gearing up for something. I bought GTP yesterday and read the piece shown here.
Porsche are even changing the design on the latest generation engines to negate some of the past problems.
However,
If you do nothing, then nothing happens.
If you so something, something will happen, win or loose. It's chance you take. My thinking is that somewhere within Porsche.de are the original designs from the parts that have failed.
Take seal failure:
A chartered eng once focused on this will ask other seal and bearing manufacturers for a response for his report. If it can be shown not fit for purpose and the number of failures can be reconciled to demonstrate this then your have a start, only a start mind. As I say it's a long process.
I just wondered Wizard, if the problem is age old why are people not doing something as a collective. On the issue of America I believe something might have been done but have not done any investigative work into Porsches largest & lucrative market. I don't live their and have no wish to.
Had no knowledge of the BMW M3 engine, I did fancy an E46 M3 as a hack though, nice piece of kit.

Maybe its not as widespread an issue as people think although I have seen a few 3.4's in bits. I regard it as a blip in the 911 watercooled evolution but I do feel sorry for anyone who has experienced engine issue first hand.

Having said that, there are many 3.4's happily running around with 100k or more miles and it would appear that if they get over 60k miles without any major issues then they do seem to keep going. :?:

The 2002 onwards 3.6's thankfully have not been that bad but you cannot expect 100% reliability.

 

[Ocean Blue]

Cheers Wizard,
Obviously a problem but it's the magnitude of said problem that might never be revealed due to quite a number of factors. Could still be an interesting one to watch now it's caught my attention.

GT4 - Take note.

Currently without doubt the land of the Rising sun has the best quality in terms of engineering. Not to be confused with a good driving experience.

The RGU university which I attend, here is but one example from which I am talking about in engineering, you can also email me on [email protected] if you wish, I'll even reply.

Aberdeen scientists and clinicians led the world with the development of MRI clinical scanning and made the critical discoveries that made MRI machines possible.
Their discoveries where offered around the world and the Japanese bought in within an hour on the phone because they knew they could make a commercial success of this.
Make what you will, in Japan the engineers have the same status as top ranking executives.
Go GT4 go Google!

Currently without doubt the land of the Rising sun has the best quality in terms of engineering. Not to be confused with a good driving experience.

Remember, I have only given you one example, believe me the list is long.