Kline exhaust for 996 Carrera C2?

[demon]

.......any chance of a picture of the TG manifolds mounted to the car? Interested in the angle and arrangement of the primaries....

 

[Fastlane]

One last enquiry Fastlane if you don't mind.

Did you notice much of a performance increase with the 200 cell CATs?
Any difference in the way the power was made?
Thanks,

To be honest, I haven't noticed any appreciable difference - perhaps a bit at the top end - but a 10bhp (at best) difference isn't going to be noticeable without a dyno. I very much doubt any aftermarket system would be by iteself!

Demon - I'm not sure I can get far enough under the car to take a meaningful picture I'm afraid, but below are some good photos taken from this thread on Rennlist:

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/1044738-added-topgear-headers.html

To summarise my thoughts, I think given the age of our cars now, and the associated problems of rusted mufflers and manifold bolts, and the ridiculous prices of the OE system and of the many aftermarket options, fitting a full Top Gear system is probably the most cost effective option out there (c.£1200 for full system FFS!). The fact that they have great customer service, as evidenced by many people (myself included) on here and on Rennlist, and the Top Gear family connection to Kline's founder Christian, makes it a no brainer...

 

[demon]

I think I've seen that post before... and that's what upsets me.... : '

i.e. if you look at the Kline manifolds.... and the 'stock' manifold pictures on the TG site, they both appear quite similar in design....

TG
https://www.topgear.co.uk/porsche-911-996-997-1-carrera-manifolds

Kline
https://progressiveparts.com/kline-porsche-996-997-carrera-manifolds-stainless-steel-inconel-625

both of which I like!

However, when you look at the Rennlist post and the "ebay" manifolds, they all seem to have a really long, hard 90 degree bend on the "top" pipe - which doesn't appeal to me a good flowing exhaust design

would love to know how your TG manifolds compare (I will have to ask TG direct shortly - or not sleep tonight!)

If you go so far as to look at Supersprint or Cargraphic headers, they do a nice treatment of the equal length primary debate e.g. the way the top 2 pipes loop over each other differently in the case of the Supersprint...

https://www.design911.com/Porsche/996--911--1997-05/Supersprint-Exhaust/pt63_1042_-cma81-cmo110/

....of which, interestingly, the DesignTek appear to be a "bit of a copy"....

all of which means I'm still torn between £450 for TG (who I think genuinely earn the like and respect) or £1,500 for a "better" design...... but if the TG look like the Kline, £450 is an absolute no brainer(!)

 

[Osh]

Gents - i'm loving this thread.

I know that i've got a year - two maximum left on my original PSE and then it will need replacing. I'm thinking of fitting the TG full system and doing tne minimum Cat level that will get me legally through an MOT... Originally I was looking at Kline but can't see why you'd pay triple the price...

Please keep us all updated on how you get on here.


Osh

 

[Fastlane]

I think I've seen that post before... and that's what upsets me.... : '

i.e. if you look at the Kline manifolds.... and the 'stock' manifold pictures on the TG site, they both appear quite similar in design....

TG
https://www.topgear.co.uk/porsche-911-996-997-1-carrera-manifolds

Kline
https://progressiveparts.com/kline-porsche-996-997-carrera-manifolds-stainless-steel-inconel-625

both of which I like!

However, when you look at the Rennlist post and the "ebay" manifolds, they all seem to have a really long, hard 90 degree bend on the "top" pipe - which doesn't appeal to me a good flowing exhaust design

would love to know how your TG manifolds compare (I will have to ask TG direct shortly - or not sleep tonight!)

If you go so far as to look at Supersprint or Cargraphic headers, they do a nice treatment of the equal length primary debate e.g. the way the top 2 pipes loop over each other differently in the case of the Supersprint...

https://www.design911.com/Porsche/996--911--1997-05/Supersprint-Exhaust/pt63_1042_-cma81-cmo110/

....of which, interestingly, the DesignTek appear to be a "bit of a copy"....

all of which means I'm still torn between £450 for TG (who I think genuinely earn the like and respect) or £1,500 for a "better" design...... but if the TG look like the Kline, £450 is an absolute no brainer(!)

I see what you mean - as far as I can see/work out my manifolds do appear to be different from those on the Top Gear website and different again from the Rennlist ones too. As per the enclosed photos (apologies for the quality) the sections from the collector to exhaust ports 1 & 4 (i.e. the cylinders on each bank nearest the rear of the engine) seem to be longer than in the photos, and there is cut/weld in them which doesn't show in their photos or on the Rennlist thread. I would say they are longer - perhaps in an attempt to make them equal length? As I said, the OP bought them, so I haven't really bothered to look at them before.

I would be interested to hear what Alex has to say about their design.

 

[dombo]

Well, I decided to go for the Kline, as I plan on keeping the car long term, and figured I'd be appreciating the quality long after I'd forgotten the price.

Should have it in a month or so, in time for summer

 

[NineExcellence]

Has anyone compared a Kline 996 system to a Top Gear system? Christian, (who owns Kline) is the half brother of Alex at Top Gear. Alex's father owns Top Gear and Alex did mention the Top Gear x-pipe is the same design as the Kline one...

I'm sure the Kline systems are lovely, but they cost twice as much as much as a Top Gear system and I am not sure they are worth the extra? :dont know:

Well I have now.

Each has their own market based on price like any product. In this case the price is down to a lot of factors while Kline is more expensive but in general from what I have seen

- Kline uses 304 SS, not 202 which is approx twice as resistant to corrosion
- Kline uses expensive top quality cats from hjs - you can pay £100 a set or even £1000 a set of cats
- Kline systems have zero welding wire pieces on the inside of the system which is important
- Kline has solid welds, gas purging and no furring on the inside - there is a performance benefit to this
- The design of their systems is such that it has smooth sound, zero drone and a performance increase
- Kline provides Inconel exhausts which actually a lot of people do purchase.

The performance benefits we have tested alone make a difference in price. The Kline is a premium product.

Ken

 

[Fastlane]

Has anyone compared a Kline 996 system to a Top Gear system? Christian, (who owns Kline) is the half brother of Alex at Top Gear. Alex's father owns Top Gear and Alex did mention the Top Gear x-pipe is the same design as the Kline one...

I'm sure the Kline systems are lovely, but they cost twice as much as much as a Top Gear system and I am not sure they are worth the extra? :dont know:

Well I have now.

Each has their own market based on price like any product. In this case the price is down to a lot of factors while Kline is more expensive but in general from what I have seen

- Kline uses 304 SS, not 202 which is approx twice as resistant to corrosion
- Kline uses expensive top quality cats from hjs - you can pay £100 a set or even £1000 a set of cats
- Kline systems have zero welding wire pieces on the inside of the system which is important
- Kline has solid welds, gas purging and no furring on the inside - there is a performance benefit to this
- The design of their systems is such that it has smooth sound, zero drone and a performance increase
- Kline provides Inconel exhausts which actually a lot of people do purchase.

The performance benefits we have tested alone make a difference in price. The Kline is a premium product.

Ken

Thanks for that Ken. I think we all appreciate that Kline is a premium product and is bound to have benefits, but to be clear, Top Gear manifolds, unlike Kline:

- Use 202 stainless
- Do not use HJS cats
- Have welding wire pieces on the inside of the system
- Do not use solid welds, gas purging and have furring on the inside
- Cause droning and have little/no performance increase

Is that all correct?
:?:

 

[NineExcellence]

Has anyone compared a Kline 996 system to a Top Gear system? Christian, (who owns Kline) is the half brother of Alex at Top Gear. Alex's father owns Top Gear and Alex did mention the Top Gear x-pipe is the same design as the Kline one...

I'm sure the Kline systems are lovely, but they cost twice as much as much as a Top Gear system and I am not sure they are worth the extra? :dont know:

Well I have now.

Each has their own market based on price like any product. In this case the price is down to a lot of factors while Kline is more expensive but in general from what I have seen

- Kline uses 304 SS, not 202 which is approx twice as resistant to corrosion
- Kline uses expensive top quality cats from hjs - you can pay £100 a set or even £1000 a set of cats
- Kline systems have zero welding wire pieces on the inside of the system which is important
- Kline has solid welds, gas purging and no furring on the inside - there is a performance benefit to this
- The design of their systems is such that it has smooth sound, zero drone and a performance increase
- Kline provides Inconel exhausts which actually a lot of people do purchase.

The performance benefits we have tested alone make a difference in price. The Kline is a premium product.

Ken

Thanks for that Ken. I think we all appreciate that Kline is a premium product and is bound to have benefits, but to be clear, Top Gear manifolds, unlike Kline:

- Use 202 stainless
- Do not use HJS cats
- Have welding wire pieces on the inside of the system
- Do not use solid welds, gas purging and have furring on the inside
- Cause droning and have little/no performance increase

Is that all correct?
:?:

Sorry I was not referring to manifolds - yet to see those and I only use Kline manifolds as had too many cracks before ( especially on turbo cars (less on na).

I have a tg system ( for a turbo) which we removed - hence the observations -
Is that the same for all systems who knows but when I put a scope down and compare then yes - Kline of course make their exhausts systems.

 

[Jamesx19]

Unless someone (Probably DynoMike and Dammit) get a bunch of different manifolds and put them on a flow bench we will never know how well they flow, and even whether the increased flow makes a difference at a meaningful RPM.

In addition, it appears that the main issue affecting length of primary pipes is getting it all to fit in the space required. It could be that a dyno optimised "Tuned length" system would have different dimensions.

The only thing that worried me slightly about the TG manifold is the obvious (From TG supplied promotional pictures - I haven't seen one in the flesh) internal, up-flow mismatch as the oval exhaust port section meets the round tubes. It appears to be a straight pipe end, which would effectively constrict the air flow at that point. As I say though, I haven't actually handled one to see if the picture is a true representation.

In the end, you can only make a choice based on how well something is made, (bends, welds and quality of the metal) and whether it looks fit for purpose.

Whether your getting value for money is something that you may never know unfortunately. But if you want a Kline then from what Ken says, sounds like you are going in the right direction........!

 

[dombo]

Ordered the Kline and collected the car from 9e yesterday.

First thought on starting her up was I'd got in the wrong car - there is a much nicer growl on ignition which then settles to a softer tone. Pulling away it has a slightly more purposeful note and seems to be breathing more freely. That could be down to the 200 cell cat vs original 600 or just me talking out of my bottom.

Childish as I am I decided to floor it in 3rd at the first emptyish bit of NSL dual carriageway. Absolutely amazing sound and the car seems a bit livelier. At town speeds it is completely unobtrusive.

Oh and it looks fantastic too, although I did have to lie behind the car with my cheek pressed into the driveway to fully appreciate the workmanship and the cool badge welded to the X pipe.

Definitely worth the extra money in my opinion, especially if the car's a long-term keeper.