Help disaster - UPDATE

[Grum]

All fingers crossed :thumbs:

 

[ScoobyDoo555]

+1 fingers & toes crossed

 

[JAD]

Update
It was oil rather than ATF.
There is metal in the oil filter and it is the IMS. :nooo:

On the plus side (to the extent there is one) there doesn't seem to be much collateral damage :thumb: However, this makes me worried that my Indy is missing something. Is it really possible that I could get the "death rattle" and then drive the car for 45 minutes (albeit carefully) and not have done major damage?

Given my lack of mechanical knowledge, if the "stud" went (and caused the brief rattling noise) would that dump oil immediately ? My oil pressure and temp was fine all the way home, there was no obvious sign of oil on the road outside my house or even my drive when I stopped to open the garage doors (not even a drop). It is only when I got it parked in the garage that it dumped it all. I only became aware of it after I turned the engine off but it is possible it started before.

Is it only when the timing chain goes that there is other damage?

What is the chance of the IMS having gone but the chain having held out for 45 minutes?

Maybe it's just paranoia but I'm still surprised the car was drivable for so long and that I seem to have been (relatively) lucky. What bad things should I be looking for?

 

[T8]

I can't help with any answers John but I'm looking forward to hearing what others say.

Fingers crossed it was just the IMS bearing and that after getting it replaced (upgraded :?: ) you'll have a great car to enjoy how it should be enjoyed thereafter.

 

[Richard H]

It there are metal flakes in the filter, then I don't see you have any alternative than to get the engine stripped and rebuilt. IMO you were extremely fortunate that it didn't let go in a big way, resultung in a huge amount of collateral damage. It will still be an expensive exercise, but not half as bad as it could have been.

If it was mine (and not knowing what the actual damage my be) I would get the engine shipped to Hartech. Apart from actual damage repair (IMS at minimum), you should consider new timing chains and cylinder liner support rings. If you call them, they should be able to give you a reasonably good idea of the costs involved.

 

[infrasilver]

I think you would be able to drive a minimal amount of miles with the stud broken and bearing still intact. The bearing sits inside the IMS and also the external bearing holder/cover which holds the inside of the bearing. The bolt keeps it all together and without it the IMS would float but still be held in place. There is a O ring on the IMS bolt/stud that could of potentially been holding oil back and it is internal to where the bolt weak/breaking point is.
I would also think you would of been losing oil whilst driving but was only aware of the amount of oil escaping once you had stopped the engine and pulled up. All the oil would of returned to the sump and pi22ed out of the bearing cover bolt hole. I wish I was at home and could take a picture of how the set up is.
How is your mechanic diagnosing no collateral damage? Although the chain would need to slip a tooth to cause damage.

 

[churny]

If it was my car, i would take the advice Richard H gave. I cant see how without stripping the engine you can be sure all the metal has been caught by the filter.
I would also be ringing Hartech, if as you say there is currently no further damage it should be relatively inexpensive to carry out some of their improvements given that the engine should probably be stripped anyway.

 

[PeterS]

IF it is IMS, its nice to know that IMS bearing failure isn't always a total stop and scrap engine.

Awaiting the results of the strip down.

Hartech arent the only engine builder in the world, but check that your indy is competant.

 

[JAD]

It there are metal flakes in the filter, then I don't see you have any alternative than to get the engine stripped and rebuilt. IMO you were extremely fortunate that it didn't let go in a big way, resultung in a huge amount of collateral damage. It will still be an expensive exercise, but not half as bad as it could have been.

If it was mine (and not knowing what the actual damage my be) I would get the engine shipped to Hartech. Apart from actual damage repair (IMS at minimum), you should consider new timing chains and cylinder liner support rings. If you call them, they should be able to give you a reasonably good idea of the costs involved.

Thanks guys for the comments. Richard pretty much sums up my thoughts. I spoke to a variety of people last week, including Hartech. I haven't found anyone closer to London who seems to have the experience with IMS issues that they have which surprises me so I'll talk to them again but I suspect the car is heading their way unless I hear of someone else.

Infra - thanks for youplain English explanation which helps to explain what might have helped.

 

[jw1000m]

John really sorry to read this, do you think it was the three hot laps behind the Antara!!

I would definitely have a chat with the guys at RPM Technik (Herts/Bucks borders). They have a fantastic setup and were rebuilding a 996 engine in their tech area when I was in a couple of weeks ago.

I certainly would be very confident in using them if they say they know what they are doing.

Jason

 

[pzero]

Any news John?

 

[JAD]

The car is currently with Hartech and I'm waiting for them to give me the latest good / bad news.

They've been quite busy and a key memeber of staff has been ill so there has been a little bit of a backlog as far as I can gather.

 

[JackieTreehorn]

I had to wait 2 or 3 weeks for them to do a service on my car. Not complaining, in fact, it gives me comfort that they are in such demand!

I can also confirm that when my car was with them recently they had 2 people off ill. IMO you have chosen the right people to sort it and fingers crossed for you it won't be a big problem.

 

[infrasilver]

IMO you have chosen the right people to sort it and fingers crossed for you it won't be a big problem.

+1, Good Luck.

 

[JAD]

The diagnosis from Hartech is as many (including me) suspected - IMS failure. :nooo:

But trying to be positive it wasn't catastrophic, I wasn't stranded in the middle of nowhere with my engine deposited all over the road behind me and I'm not being faced with a new engine bill! And I managed a complete day at Millbrook with CAT DT and learned lots!

I think partly as a result of luck but also partly as I have a tiptronic (which seemed to go into a safe mode) and partly because I reacted sensibly and drove with extreme mechanical sympathy I managed to drive for 45 minutes from when the ims first let go!

So that others can learn from my experience and with hindsight the stethoscope test by your Indy or other mechanic is about the best hope of getting advance notice of problems because once you get the 'death rattle' it's too late and you are into mitigating damage rather than avoiding the problem. (see earlier in the thread for details of the death rattle symptoms).

According to Hartech, I have avoided the collateral damage I feared and have only the direct impact of the IMS failure (which is not insignificant). For those who are not aware, Hartechs approach is to strip the engine and assess matters and report to the owner with essential work, recommended work and then optional improvements/strengthening. The decision is then left to the owner as to what to do.

From my research and (limited) experience, Hartech are the UK experts on IMS issues. That's not to say they are the only ones who are capable of dealing with this (autofarm and a few other indies are also worthy of note) but they seem to do more of this sort of work than anyone else. Their experience does come at a price. They have a 'menu' approach to pricing and work that comes from their experience of the issues and what in reality requires to be replaced/fixed.

Ih ave found everyone at Hartech to be friendly, very knowledgable and extremely patient but I can understand why some people have not warmed to their approach and commented on the hard sell. Remember that while it's a major disaster/bill for an individual owner, it's probably the 5th/10th/20th time that week that Hartech have had exactly the same conversation with a panicked Porsche owner with his/her engine like a box of mechano so a degree of jadedness is understandable! They don't have a crystal ball nor xray vision so the extent of the damage /work required will only be apparent when they get things apart yes they can guess based on their experience but if anything they seem to err on the side of caution.

Is it possible to get it fixed cheaper - probably. But for the peace of mind of it being fixed properly or that they will have addressed the collateral issues rather than leaving a time bomb which might result in further damage down the line, I hope, their experience means the future risk is much reduced.

The design of a 911 engine means that to replace some simple (and cheap) parts means you need to drop the engine (and gearbox in a tip) resulting in a four figure bill. As result I have elected to do a number of 'recommended' jobs. This pushes up the bill but is hopefully a sensible economy in the long run (and not only improves my car but will give me some peace of mind in the future). Yes Hartech make more money but they present the options to the owner and allow them to decide. I have been particularly impressed with Grant and they do seem to take their guidance from the owner. Be sensible and reasonable with them and they will try to do well for you.

Clearly Hartech are busy and popular which is hopefully not an indication that there are more latent IMS problems. It's early days but so far I've been quite impressed but further updates will follow.