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997.2 Exhausting exhaust options

simon45089

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2 Sep 2011
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Hello all, I know this topic has come up many times, as I have read many many posts over the last few days which in itself has been exhausting ! I want to improve the sound of my 997.2 exhaust. i would like a deeper more rumbling note. My car is a 3.6 Carrera without PSE- which I dont want to retrofit largely due to cost.
From my reading I have deduced the following.

Gundo hack is not ideal as the third silencer really needs replacing on the 997.2 to get any benefit.
Also the lack of being able to reverse it doesnt appeal. Gundo plus removal of third silencer may be too loud day to day. I want normal volume at lower revs, louder when the foot goes down.

So, primarily I am looking at solely switching the rear silencer for something else that is reversible if it all goes horribly wrong. Here are my obvious options

Sharkwerks- expensive.
Miltek- apparently a direct copy of Sharkwerks and cheaper- around £495.
Haywood and Scott- also a copy of the Sharkwerks unit, and similar price to Miltek.
Finally Topgear which is cheapest but uses a different design (X pipe ?) which some argue gives a higher pitched sound, more racing than the deeper sound I like.
Does anyone here have any direct experience of any of the above and can give me a recommendation ?
I do love this car, but woud like to hear it shout a little !
Many thanks for reading.
Simon.
 
I've only got experience of the Sharkwerks. It's great.
 
I have the H&S and am very happy with it.

I have considered adding the 'gundo hack" but am reluctant as it's not reversible and like you I am after growl not decibel!
 
I have the Miltek and am pleased with it.
Although I do have PSE (and as i have a GTS, x51 headers).
Soo i would say 500 odd quid (or more for sharkwerks) for a non pse car, might not actually deliver that much change.
perhaps a cross pipe with 3rd party switchable silencers might be better value (if more expensive).
I know there are sharkwerks devotees, but to pay twice the price for two tubes of steel you do have to be devoted.
one thing everybody agrees, is the stock exhaust, esp without pse is way too quiet.
 
Hi, I have been in your exact position.

3.6 gen 2 no PSE

I got Haywood & Scott through a group buy on here for £340. (Quite a few new 997 owners of late, so you may get 6 or 8 people interested so you can haggle with H&S)

It added more rasp over 3500 rpm, lived with it for a year or so, and then went for Gundo as well.

It is not what I would call loud, certainly no louder than PSE.

If you are after deep rumble, you need to remember that a flat 6 will never burble like a V6 or V8

I'm in Derby if you want to listen to mine.

I also worried about the Gundo being irreversible - but with the age of these now, and how common the Gundo is, I don't think it would put off a potential buyer.

:thumb:
 
Dont forget if your looking at Topgear you can knock 10% off the listed prices as forum members get a discount as Topgear are forum sponsors. that makes the the 3rd muffler Xpipe £314 ,I personally wouldn't be looking at an irreversible gundo for £300/400 when you can get valved sports boxes from Topgear for £900 with the discount . when you sell the car put the old exhaust back on and sell the sports exhaust recoup a chunk of your money back , meaning it cost only a fraction more than the gundo. :thumb:

regarding the rear muffler delete pipes there are two types the xpipe and the crossover pipe , Topgears is the xpipe type it looks the same as all the xpipe types . Haywood and Scott is the cross over type . have a read of fabspeed and sharkwerks websites as one talks the advantages go xpipe the other the advantages of the cross over , that might help you make your mind up. :thumb:
 
Thanks very much for the replies. I think im on the right track at least. Start with the third silencer and move onto the other boxes if necessary further down the line.
 
My personal advice to anyone for wanting more sound on 997.2 Carrera is, regardless of brand, always start with the secondary silencer bypass. For a lot of people that is enough of a noise change to satisfy them. And if not, its a mod you'd want done regardless when changing the other bits so is an ideal starting point.
 
Since JMG Porsche LTD are local to me I asked their advice on the differences in use between an x-pipe and the under/over design of centre silencer delete pipes, Jon Mitchell very kindly wrote back with a highly detailed response which I will copy below hoping others may find his knowledge useful. Based on this I have decided to go the Topgear X-pipe route for my Black Edition C2 PDK.

Audio effects of an "under over" design.

Your engine has six cylinders, divided into two banks of 3 cylinders, with all the cylinders firing at different times.

With a "over-under" design of rear silencer delete, each side will be serving only three cylinders, with strong pulses travelling through the exhaust to the tailpipe, with a very low negative pressure wave between them.

With two tailpipes being about 4 feet apart, when the high pressure pulse leaves one tailpipe the sound pressure will expand outwards in all directions behind the car, including towards the other tailpipe.

With the two tailpipes both producing pulses, completely out of phase with one another, they can collide behind the car, which can cause some unusual effects, usually between 2500 and 4500 rpm.

With the speed of sound being constant (the speed the pulses move and expand) but the rate of them being delivered to the tailpipe being variable (depending on the engine RPM) these collisions will happen at different positions behind the car depending on rpm.

The effect of this is that at low rpm, the two tailpipes having individual pulses, completely separated, at a higher amplitude, with a low pressure wave between them, can result in a more aggressive idle exhaust note.

At higher rpms (typically 2500 to 4500 rpm), there can be a problem of resonance, where collisions between the two pulses behind the car, will begin to collide, which will be absorbed by the car as sound waves, and transmitted into the cabin as sound. Which can cause droning exhaust sound inside the car between 2500 and 4500 rpm, often described by some owners as the exhaust sounding "boomy" at cruising speeds.

This is less of a problem with cars like the 997 with the tailpipes separated (meaning collisions have lost much of their energy), compared to other models like the Cayman where the tailpipes are closer together (and the pulses still retain their energy and the collisions are louder)

Audio effects of a "x-pipe" design.

With an X-Pipe, both banks join momentarily in the exhaust, which allows the peaks of the pressure wave to equalise into the other banks low pressure wave, and the low pressure zones behind each pulse pull pressure from the other bank also.

This results in slightly lower pressure at peak at each tailpipe, and a less defined low pressure wave also, which removes much of the air pressure waves outside of the car, which in turn causes the collisions to be much reduced and little or no chance of droning/boominess inside the car at cruising speeds.

It also means that the sound at idle in particular will be slightly less aggressive and a warmer smoother sound.

Audio effects conclusion.

With either system, because the rear silencer has been removed, will result in a louder sportier note, with the "over-under" or "x-pipe" design, simply because the silencer has been deleted.

The "over under" design will be slightly louder at low rpm with a more aggressive note, with the "x-pipe" design sounding more aggressive and louder at higher rpm.

But much of this depends on the rest of the exhaust system, such as the manifolds and other silencing effects such as the catalytic converters.

Performance.

In short, a "over under" design will provide better low rpm torque, and a crossover design will provide improved top end rpm power, which is why race cars often use the x-pipe design, because they are designed to be closer to the rev limit constantly, whereas a road car will be pulling out of junctions and cruising, where low rpm performance is often preferred.

This is due to pulse length tuning, or the amount of time it takes the positive pulse to hit lower pressure air (either at the tailpipe in a over-under design, or the crossover and tailpipe in the x-pipe design.)

With an exhaust design, the time it takes for a positive pressure wave to reach the tailpipe (or crossover) will cause a negative pressure reflection to head back into the exhaust system, which depending on RPM, if it hits the an cylinder head valve just before, or as it opens, will help such exhaust gasses out of the cylinder, rather than the engine having to push them out, this is known as scavenging, and really depends on the exhaust system design as a whole.

As a complication to this, the standard manifolds are not a great design, and are different lengths, which effects the pulse width tuning, causing different cylinders to benefit at different rpm ranges, which does complicate things from a performance standpoint.

All of these aspects, effect the performance and why you will hear of exhaust systems as "Scavenging" or being "Pulse length tuned", and how they will effect power in different ways at different rpms.

Other effects.

With the advent of PDK transmissions, all of this becomes more complicated, as depending on your mode of driving the transmission will dictate high or low rpm bands to spend most of the engines's time is spent in, which then dictates which type of exhaust would benefit you most depending on your driving style.

All the best

Jon Mitchell

JMG Workshop Team

Telephone: +44 (0)1202 488800 – Website: www.jmgporsche.co.uk – email: [email protected]

JMG Porsche Ltd – 98 Cobham Road, Ferndown Industrial Estate, Wimborne, Dorset, BH21 7RE, England.
 
Wow - that is some detailed response.

I have no drone from my over-under Haywood & Scott FWIW
 
Another thumbs up for Hayward and Scott. No drone. It's subdued under 3500rpm and then really wakes up above 4000rpm. The best of both worlds really quietish when you need it to be and loud when you want some fun.
 
Jon Michell is a very experienced Porsche engineer and that is an incredibly detailed answer to your question , Its very good that its given you the confidence to decide which type of 3rd muffler delete to go for .

As your so close have you had a chance to see the skeleton of the new Porsche centre Bournemouth on the corner of the estate that JMG are on ,It looks huge and is supposed to be going to be bigger than Portsmouth OPC .

:thumb: I will look out for you locally :thumb:
 
Great answer. Tubi is a cracker. So much so, I reckon it's the number 1 reason why I've not had a raft of new cars. The noise is subtle, until you extend the right foot and then it's addictive, especially under the airport tunnels at MCR. :lock: :cop:
 
Have the miltek on mine and very happy with it, no drone and sounds great when giving it some 😁

Try bypass first, I'm happy and don't feel the need to do anything else, cars a 3.6 gen2.
 

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