Porsche 911 UK Enthusiasts Online Community Discussion Forum GB

Welcome to the @Porsche911UK website. Register a free account today to become a member! Sign up is quick and easy, then you can view, participate in topics and posts across the site that covers all things Porsche.

Already registered and looking to recovery your account, select 'login in' and then the 'forget your password' option.

Suspension options for PASM

Weston Matt

Monza
Joined
30 Nov 2021
Messages
155
Evening

I know there are plenty of posts on suspension options and I've spent a few hours trawling through them, but I wanted to ask some opinions on changing my suspension on my c2s with PASM. I use PASM rarely as it's so hard unless perfect road.

I have already had worn parts replaced and geo done by the experts at CG so I know it's set up correctly but I don't like the ride height.

As I see it my options are;

Lowering springs - leaning towards Eibach
Bilstein B16 to keep PASM
ohlins and lose PASM

If I go the Eibach route I will probably change to coil overs at some point, but cheaper at the moment.

Bilsteins and Ohlins are within £200 of each other and about the same including the extensions due to Bose.

With the Bilstein and Eibach options, I know there is DSC to keep the oem set up, but from what I have read Ohlins could be a better option (also adjustable for the odd track day)

I know with a lot of things we do with our cars is subjective, but I thought I'd ask those who have the options fitted want they think and would they change anything

Thanks
 
I'm not sure what I can add but I'm in a similar boat but my driving force is better control and a more planted feel rather than lowering. I'll offer my thoughts so far on what I've found in the hope it assist in some way. Suspension is very subjective but to give an idea on on my scale of acceptability for road use: -
1) My E46 M3 runs Bilstein B12 (B8 inverted mono-tube dampers matched to eibach lowering springs). This is quiet jiggly below 30 mph and not great over pot-holes/speed bumps/roadwork patches etc, too harsh, above 30mph it really comes alive and flows nicely with the road and controls the body well, turn in is really quite nice. Eibach springs alone were far too soft, OEM was far too soft and too much roll/slow turn-in and the rear end wobbled about a bit on power corner exit.
2) Celica GT4 is running a very firm coil-over setup (100nm front /60nm rear), it's not ideal. When you back off damping for road use it struggles to control the car over road undulations properly. With higher damping rates it controls the body but is too jiggly for most roads unless you are 40mph +. Definitely a high-days and holidays car. It can activate the ABS over road ruts. Really only suited to smooth tarmac.

I assume you want lowering for a visual improvement? Generally lowering will make standard suspension worse at handling bumps and maintaining alignment as you have less suspension travel to soak up bumps and unless you spend a chunk of money on additional alignment products; you move the roll-centre of the car, suffer more bump-steer and may struggle to get good alignment over the whole travel of the shock. When I spoke to Centre of Gravity they suggested uprated ARB's over lowering springs unless I wanted to lower for looks, in which case they suggested Eibachs. On looking up spring rates, both H&R and Eibach are similar rates and only around 10-15% stiffer than OEM but the Eibach are progressive so start softer (than OEM) and then get firmer the more they are compressed. Teh general suggestion seems to be only fit lowering springs for a better look/worse ride/handling and if you're on a budget.

Some of my observations have come from a skewed starting point I've recently found. I'm in the middle of replacing a front snapped spring and have found play in arms and I suspect a big alignment issue where one strut top is full inward and the other full out (A curb bump prior to my ownership?) I've tried to get the car aligned twice during my ownership at local places but both times been let down.

On purchase of the car I found normal suspension mode too soft and Sport mode far too firm. Reading the internet suggests that standard is 20% damping and Sport is 80% damping so hardly surprising it's too firm. What I did notice is that in sport mode the rear end wallow was generally removed and the car felt more planted. As such my first step was the DSC PASM controller upgrade. This effectively sets the normal mode to 10% damping and it increases damping % upto 100% as g-force increases (due to cornering or acceleration/braking.) the Sport mode has a range of 20% to 100%. You can tweak these settings though on the map. This effectively allows the car to absorb most bumps and ruts when you are cruising or pottering about your village but it firms up as you push harder.

My thoughts on DSC were initially very positive, sport mode is now as comfy as the original normal mode, IMHO if anything the normal mode is too soft. Sport mode generally corners flatter than the original normal mode and inspires more confidence. Occasionally the system does get caught out IMHO and in part I suspect due to the slow reaction time to change damping rate of the OEM dampers and there being too much of range of damping forces used in 1 specific map (e.g. 20-100%). A combination of a low but large undulation in a road followed by a sharp corner (with or without more undulations) really unsettles the car IMHO as the damper is still set to the "soft damping %" of the straight ahead when you enter the corner and it can't firm up mid-stroke with OEM dampers. I suspect I could dial out most of this issue by increasing the minimum damping %. We also have to consider that the 997 has 1st gen PASM and later generations have position sensors for even more control by the DSC which isn't available for the 997 so maybe the DSC isn't as intelligent/effective on 997 generation cars?

As I'm replacing front shock absorbers (which I suspect yours will be corroded as well and require replacing) I'm looking at options (major mission creep).

I've now been out in a couple of passive setups: -
KW V3: - this was set to track damping and was evidently very firm for the road (too firm in the owners words and he usually reduces damping a lot for road use). It did however totally transform how the car felt, it was incredibly communicative, far faster to respond to inputs and felt like a sports car rather than a GT car like a standard 997 does. I'd like to experience it on softer settings for the road, I couldn't live with it on the settings I experienced.
Ohlins R&T: - This was running a damping setup that I believe was for a mixed fast road and occasional track. It was far more compliant than the KW but still quite jiggly at low speeds. OK for a weekend car but too firm for a daily IMHO. Certainly a fair bit former than my M3/B12 setup. I didn't crash over bumps though. I have read that the Ohlins DFV valve effectively blows off pressure during big-hits to smooth the ride, this has been suggested as being a good option for road use but upsetting the car when on track hitting curbs.

Pretty much all coil-over setups run around 40nm front springs and 100 nm rear which is similar to 997 GT3 OEM spring rates. (whilst the difference appears massive, the "wheel ratio" of the rear damper is different as it is more in-board on the suspension arms so the resultant difference at the wheels isn't so great).

As such I think I need to retain active damping control as I want mine to be able to daily and for weekend blasts and maybe even an odd track day. My choice therefore seems to be Bilstein B16PASM or Tractive Touring line, neither of which I've experienced. There is quite a big difference between them on cost and technology.

Bilstein B16 PASM is effectively what the GT3 comes with, you can retain PASM and add the DSC controller but it is still slow to react and can't adjust damping mid stroke. Reportedly much better body control and still can be compliant.

Tractive is around 20 times faster to react and can change damping mid stroke. Less likely to be caught out by complex road condition I suspect. I've not read anything bad about this setup.

The final 2 "new to the party" options are KW now does a setup with in-car adjustment of damping rates (not active) for the 997 and Ohlins has a range similar but yet to be available for the 997.

How much mission creep can your wallet cope with? :)
 
I'd start with the DSC module Diceman mentioned. CG can custom tune it too. It's worth a discussion with them regarding your requirements and they can advise. They also have their own passive system available (or are working on, to be available soon).

Like Diceman, I wanted to retain PASM. I added adjustable anti-roll bars, DSC, wider wheels, spacers and geo set up with corner weighting. It drives well, handles well and is compliant. Even if you don't want to go down the coilovers route, I'd add adjustable anti-roll bars. Much like the GT cars have (GT2/GT3/RS), and allows you to fine tune a little more.
 
I've driven all those set ups inc Bilsten B16 Damptronic Comfort and Clubsport. Go for Tractive Touring Line and make sure the kit you are sold has rubber gaiters between helper spring and main spring. My TracTive suspension kit came without them for some unknown reason.
 
Also note that even if you do not "use" PASM, it's always active, you just have hard and soft but there's constant adjustments.

With the DSC, the adjustments have a much greater fidelity, but even the old Porsche controller is constantly changing damping response.

So, best not to think of PASM as just two settings, but constantly adjusting suspension, but with adjustments to hard and soft.

IMI A - I'm sure I read some issues with the Tractive on a 997 C2(S), but that may have been fixed now?

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=151251&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=tractive&start=40

So on a 997.2 C2S I think? I'm interested as I'm closely looking at Tractive, as having a greater range of suspension travel and body control.
 
Thanks for the responses.

To clarify a couple of points. Whilst the ride height is an issue, it's more about feeling more connected and having confidence when I do push on. The CG visit went a long way to improve things.

I'm also aware that lowering springs will only really give me the look and if I want the full package, I need to change dampers as well.

I suppose I have answered part of my own question and discount the springs and look at a coil over set.

Ohlins, I looked at these as they are fit and forget once set up (unless tracking) with no electronics

B16s, plug and play but would always end up fitting the dcs controller which is an additional £2k ish

Tractive, I would love but at Circa £3.5k too much for me and would still need dsc

All good points noted and as I said, it is very subjective. I have read many a good review on all suspension options, so I suppose it ultimately comes down to cost
 
DSC obviously won't address your ride height but it is very good at improving ride comfort AND handling. CoG did mine and it runs standard maps but you can have tailored too.
 
:yeah:

I have Eibach's (used to be H&R but were too low) and DSC with standard dampers, and its a great set up. I think if your current dampers are working well (did CG test them?) then that'd be a good step up from yours now.

And if you have a PC with a USB, you can tweak the DSC settings yourself very easily. Mine is back to the default settings now I'm on the Eibach's, but I changed them when I had the H&R's.
 
I've made the following steps:
1.) Standard everything
2.) Standard dampers + DSC + GT3 rear ARB
3.) Tractive touring + some other bits

DSC was a huge improvement in every condition / use. Much more compliant & comfortable at low speeds. Better control & comfort on quick road driving, Much flatter on track. I ended up using the stiffer PASM setting all the time as I liked it more.

Tractive's fitted earlier this week & the Tractive GT3 map for the DSC. Initial thoughts are:
Track behaviour is a LOT better. A bigger step on than just the DSC.
A/B road driving is also fabulous, supple and well controlled. Feels a lot better than the standard Bilstein dampers.
Round town driving / low speed bump is a lot firmer.

I'd have a good think about what you are looking to optimise for - I use a different car every day & round town. A decent chunk of the behaviour of the dampers will depend on the spring rates selected. 911Time has a thread on here with Tractives and softer progressive springs.

Center Gravity could advise on the different set ups, in my view you want the mechanical set up (spring rates/roll rates/suspension geometry) right for how you want to use the car and then adjust the rest in the damping. For a dual use car I think retaining the PASM button in the car is a big win and you can refine a lot with the DSC damper control for the things you like and don't like.

I did ask about the standard dampers + lowering springs with CG (and DSC) and it would be ok, but a bit compromised in some situations (e.g. for me on trackdays).
 
Thanks again for the opinions.

Mine isn't a daily, so I don't mind it being firmer - just not so much that I lose my fillings!!

I do like the look of Tractive but I think it's just out of my price range at the moment.

It's on the original dampers, but the last owner for 13 never really drove it hard and it was a town car always undercover. So whilst still on originals they are 17 years old.

Part of me is wanting the full tractive and dsc combi and the part thinks Ohlins

Decisions decisions.......
 
Save up longer and go with TracTive if you think your 997 may be a forever car. Promise it sorts out the 997s inherent bounce ancd porpoise motion that was present on these cars over choppy roads even when new out of the box. If I could choose only one upgrade for my 997 it would be these dampers. They really suit the car yes slightly firmer but not GT3 or GT2 firm. Perfectly useable day to day and string a few corners togther on give and take road you'll be pleased you waited and then went for these.
 
:yeah:

I have Eibach's (used to be H&R but were too low) and DSC with standard dampers, and its a great set up. I think if your current dampers are working well (did CG test them?) then that'd be a good step up from yours now.

And if you have a PC with a USB, you can tweak the DSC settings yourself very easily. Mine is back to the default settings now I'm on the Eibach's, but I changed them when I had the H&R's.
whats the hieght difference with the H&R Vs Eibach? I have an 06 C4S with PASM, was planning to renew stock PASM shocks with lowering springs
 
whats the hieght difference with the H&R Vs Eibach? I have an 06 C4S with PASM, was planning to renew stock PASM shocks with lowering springs

According to the specs on each, the H&R lowers the car by 30mm and the Eibach's 25mm. But I have to say on my car the difference particularly on the rear seemed greater than that.

I think the issue is that the H&R springs are a lot softer than the Eibach's. In fact my Indy couldn't believe the difference when he put them side by side when swapping them over, the H&R's look positively skinny in comparison! I think this was why I found the H&R bottomed out so easily, and allowed the spoiler to scrape at any opportunity. :oops:
 
  • Wow
Reactions: MGW

New Threads

Forum statistics

Threads
124,621
Messages
1,442,167
Members
49,054
Latest member
SpkM3
Back
Top