Porsche 911 UK Enthusiasts Online Community Discussion Forum GB

Welcome to the @Porsche911UK website. Register a free account today to become a member! Sign up is quick and easy, then you can view, participate in topics and posts across the site that covers all things Porsche.

Already registered and looking to recovery your account, select 'login in' and then the 'forget your password' option.

Interesting article

Helsinki Paul

Montreal
Joined
26 Oct 2009
Messages
512
Found this article posted up on Rennlist.

Before we begin and just to be on the safe side, a short disclaimer.

The Poster, that's me, posts this article in good faith for the perusement and enjoyment of fellow 911Ukers. The sentiments expressed in this article are those of the author and are in no way endorsed by this poster. :popcorn:

http://www.insideline.com/porsche/911/2010/2010-porsche-997-vs-1994-porsche-993.html

2010 Porsche 997 vs. 1994 Porsche 993

The Last Air-Cooled 911 vs. the Best Liquid-Cooled 911

By Alistair Weaver, Contributor | Published May 17, 2010


The rasp of the flat-6 engine gets angry as we go for another gear. The steering wheel feels alive in our hands, sending us a strong message from the asphalt beneath the tires. We look out through the upright windscreen across the low nose of the car and the road dances in front of us. We could only be in a Porsche 911, and this feels like the ultimate 911 "” agile, light and the perfect partner for speed by a lone driver. But wait a second, this ultimate 911 is actually a 1994 Porsche 993, the last of the rear-engine breed with an air-cooled engine. Could Porsche have actually been going backward since this remarkable sports car was replaced by the modern, electronically sophisticated Porsche 997 with its liquid-cooled flat-6?

There are those who say the Porsche 911 died when the 993 iteration of the car and its traditional air-cooled engine were put to rest in 1998. This was the last and arguably the finest iteration of a car that could trace its genealogy back to the original Porsche 911 of 1963. The car that followed, which carried the project code 996, was all-new. The chassis grew in size and weight and its engine was cooled by water, not air. Plus, horror of horrors, the 996's interior featured a clip-on cupholder, a plastic receptacle that became the symbol for Porsche purists of all that had gone wrong with the "new" 911.

Today, a good Porsche 993 is worth more than the equivalent Porsche 996 and almost as much as a used version of the current-generation Porsche 997, the model introduced in 2005 that had been created to inject a little of the traditional 993 spirit into the contemporary 911.

But do the Porsche purists have it right? If we take a hard look at the car itself, is the Porsche 993's iconic status justified? If we look beyond the rhetoric and the celebratory T-shirts, is a 911 from the pre-Britney era really more engaging than the Porsche 997 with its sophisticated chassis and incredibly powerful, liquid-cooled flat-6 engine? To find out, we matched a 2010 Porsche 911 Carrera with the equivalent 1994 Porsche 911 Carrera.

The Outside Story
The 2010 Porsche 911 Carrera is what some in Britain refer to as the "poverty-spec" 911, a simple rear-wheel-drive Carrera with a manual transmission and standard suspension. And as if to emphasize the complicated, high-tech options, this car is painted in refrigerator white and is equipped with simple, black 19-inch wheels.

Next to it, the 1994 Porsche 911 Carrera seems as if it's from another age. Even though this 993 version of the 911 represents the third of the five generations of the 911 that Porsche distinguishes, it seems as small and simple as the first Porsche "901" that appeared at the 1963 Frankfurt Auto Show, and even its 17-inch wheels look toylike.

Though the silhouettes are consistent, it's extraordinary how much bigger the contemporary car looks. The bodywork of the 993 appears to have been shrink-wrapped around its mechanicals, its low nose exaggerating the near vertical windscreen that is the trademark of this shape. In comparison, the 997 appears to be wearing a baggy sweater, as it's 7.5 inches longer and 2.9 inches wider, a response to man's physiological evolution as well as the ongoing crusade for greater safety.

The Inside Tale
The Porsche 993 represented a big step forward in technical sophistication for Porsche, and it wanted to present an all-new interior design as well as the new chassis concept. Unfortunately Porsche lacked the time and resources, so the basic architecture of the 993's cockpit still resembles that of the 1963 original. The five circular dials in the instrument pod, which includes the tachometer positioned directly in front of the driver, look little changed since the first 911.

The front wheels kiss the road through the steering made weighty with lots of caster for stability.

Meanwhile, the ergonomics are dreadful, but there are indications of modernity like the LCD tripmeter. You'll find front airbags and antilock brakes (this was the 1990s, not the Stone Age), but no stability control "” a reflection both of the technology of the time and the resentment the Porsche driver still has toward electronics of all kinds.

There's no disguising that the 993 hails from a different era, yet there's also an integrity about the cabin that no modern car can match. The substantial action of the doors as they slam close, the depth of the carpets and the quality of the switchgear are nothing less than extraordinary from our perspective today. This car is 16 years old, but everything works and feels like it's a step beyond the current car, not two steps behind.

In contrast to its hand-built predecessor, the modern 997 feels mass-produced, and not in a good way. The leather is now so thick with chemical treatments that Daisy wouldn't recognize it. The switchgear no longer has the weight and solidity of old, while the modern instrument dials lack that timeless charm. Sitting in a 911 is now less of an occasion, but this reflects changing tastes and more emphasis on ergonomic correctness, not a wrong turn in design. By contemporary standards, a modern Porsche 911 is extremely well built, and also safe and comfortable thanks to its plethora of electronic gizmos. Just as the Porsche 911 has always been, the 997 is an everyday sports car, only we expect more from everyday transportation today than we did in 1994.

Cooling by Air or Water
In 1998, the air-cooled, 3,600cc M64 flat-6 that had famously served the 911 so well became a victim of the modern world. The demand for more power, coupled with concerns about fuel-efficiency and air emissions, meant that Porsche had to change tack. The 3,614cc M96 engine that followed was still a flat-6 and still sat behind the rear axle, but it was cooled by water.

The engine in our 993 produces 272 horsepower at 6,100 rpm "” 300 hp was then seen as frivolously superfluous in a Porsche "” and 243 pound-feet of torque is available at 5,000 rpm. In comparison, the flat-6 of the contemporary Carrera boasts 345 hp at 6,500 rpm and 288 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. The new car is heavier, though, weighing in at 3,120 pounds in British spec, exactly 100 pounds more than a British-spec 993 from 1994.

Porsche's estimates of performance say the 1994 Porsche 911 Carrera with the company's first six-speed manual gearbox would reach 60 mph from a standstill in 5.5 seconds and achieve a top speed of 168 mph. Today, Porsche claims the 2010 Porsche 911 Carrera will get to 60 mph from a standstill in 4.7 seconds and reach a top speed of 179 mph.

The Emotive Bit
It only takes a few yards to appreciate the difference in these cars. Sixty-four-thousand miles and 16 years have not dulled the reactions of our carefully cared-for Porsche 993. When you change gear, you can feel the cogs engage and hear the cam belts working in the engine. The front wheels kiss the road through the steering made weighty through lots of caster for straight-line stability in this rear-engine package.

Just like the original 911 (and the Volkswagen Beetle to which it can trace its heritage), the 993 has pedals that hinge on the floor, an amazing anachronism from today's perspective. On the whole, this is a very mechanical car that demands engagement. You have to commit and work with it, caressing it into corners. Because it's a rear-engine car on a short 89.4-inch wheelbase, you want to steer smoothly into a corner, balance the car and then get hard on the power when you can see the exit, reveling in a surfeit of traction. Let the revs rise past 5,000 rpm and you'll hear one of the automotive world's most evocative soundtracks, as if you were Steve McQueen in the opening sequence of Le Mans.

The Porsche 997 delivers a very different experience. Though it rides on a 92.5-inch wheelbase, it feels like a much larger car from the driver seat, while the rakish windscreen makes it seem more normal. The variable-ratio power assist for the steering makes effort levels much lighter at low speed, yet the steering feels artificial overall. The shift action is quick and effortless, but heavily sprung so the mechanical interaction feels muted. This is a precision instrument for the PlayStation generation.

At the same time, the contemporary 911 is much easier to drive hard. It serves up an instant hit of confidence, encouraging you to push on and explore its considerable repertoire. Compared to a 993, you can chuck the 997 into a corner, as it's less demanding of steering technique and throttle application. You can lean on it without fear of retribution and there's no shortage of electronic aids to gather up the mess if you run out of talent.

The 997's standard 3.6-liter engine really needs the optional sport exhaust to express its personality, but it's absurd to suggest it's got no soul compared to the air-cooled engine.

Track Time
Just as in the U.S., the British distributor of Porsche has undertaken to help people learn to drive in the Porsche manner. The Porsche Experience Center next to the Silverstone Circuit in the English countryside north of London offers dedicated tracks for wet-weather and dry-weather driving, an ideal playground for our duo.

A special low-grip wet surface simulates icy traction, and the consequences of lift-off oversteer and power oversteer are soon absorbed. But in the 997, these challenging dynamics are much more controllable. You can tease and play with this car, reveling in the quick-witted steering. In this exercise, the 993 feels almost clumsy in comparison, its shorter wheelbase exaggerating its responses and making it that much harder to catch. The aluminum double-wishbone rear suspension introduced on the 993 might have tamed the snap-oversteer of the earlier 911 with its trailing-arm rear suspension, but you never forget that the engine's dangling out the back.

On a dry track, the difference between the 993 and 997 is less pronounced, of course. You're not allowed to go for quick lap times at the Porsche facility "” a condition of its zoning and Insurance certification "” but the corner speeds suggest we're a little slower in the 993 than the 997 even though we're working much harder. You have to concentrate all the time in the older car, although that's not necessarily a bad thing. Isn't a sports car meant to both challenge and reward?

Will the Real Porsche 911 Step Forward?
There is an extraordinary amount of nonsense spoken and written about the Porsche 911. The concept didn't die with the Porsche 993; it was just reinvented for a changing world. And while the Porsche 996 undeniably took this reinvention too far, the 997 feels like a descendant of the original 1963 car. The 2010 Porsche Carrera is what a contemporary 911 has to be, and it's a fabulous car as an entry-level, all-purpose 911. This is arguably the best all-around version of the contemporary 911, which comes in so many different configurations these days (of which our heart makes us choose the GT3).

It's ludicrous to claim that the Porsche 993 is a better car than the 997, but it is the more engaging drive and the more emotive choice. The 997 feels more mass-market, and each successor will mark a subtle improvement on this theme. In other words, when the 998 arrives next year, the 997 will feel like simply a less good version of a modern 911.

In comparison, the 993 will always feel like a special moment in history. The dictates of the modern world mean there can never be another car like it, so it will continue to be hailed as the last classic 911. This 1994 Porsche 911 Carrera is one of the finest sports cars ever produced, and that is why M172 LPB belongs to us.

The manufacturer provided Edmunds with the 2010 Porsche 911 for the purposes of evaluation.
 
Alistair Weaver said:
The car that followed, which carried the project code 996, was all-new. The chassis grew in size and weight
I'm pretty sure the 996 is actually lighter than the 993... :?:
 
Nice article Paul, thanks for posting, like your disclaimer too :D

Reads well, and come across as well balanced, I'm sure I read the original in one of the 3 monthly Porker mags.

I know a couple of people who went from their 993's to 996, back to 993 then straight to 997 and are very happy with the end result.
 
Yeah , I'd agree with most of the thrust of this article.
It's like comparing a nice new mock tudor 5 bed detached house in suburbia with a cottage on the coast thats a bitch to heat and has one loo.. off the kitchen.

The 'burbian will give you a perfectly comfortable but numb souless existance, if that's what floats yer boat, they ain't making any more coastline though ...
 
I'm sure Andrew Frankel wrote something almost identical to this a few issues ago in a GT Performance Porsche. It's as if there's a concerted mission to try to get the 993 resale prices up and ultimately establish this particular model as the bullet proof investment that other models aren't. If that's the vested interest behind these ongoing facimile articles then fine, best of luck. But if it's a genuine article, then is it all not a bit boring at this stage, preaching to the converted stuff. Wouldn't it be more interesting after a million 993's are the ultimate 911 articles for even 993 readers to get to read an alternative view. Thousands of people opted for 996's when they could have bought a 993. And still do. There are good 993's out there for low 20K's which are easily accessible to 996 buyers if they wanted them. Wouldn't it be interesting to hear the perspective of a 996 buyers decision process just for a bit of variety if nothing else? Or would that burst some peoples bubbles a little bit?
 
It wouldn't burst my bubble, '40'.

I could give you a three year running report on my 996.

That was before I bought the 993.

Each to their own of course ,but from past experience I just happened to agree with the authors view point , nothing more deep or meaningful than that.


Btw , you won't get many on here to bite , at your assertion that the article is 'trying to get 993 re-sale prices up' ..
Most are quite happy that their 993 is a long term proposition, praise enough for any car :thumbs:
 
ballcock said:
It wouldn't burst my bubble, '40'.

I could give you a three year running report on my 996.

That was before I bought the 993.

Each to their own of course ,but from past experience I just happened to agree with the authors view point , nothing more deep or meaningful than that.


Btw , you won't get many on here to bite , at your assertion that the article is 'trying to get 993 re-sale prices up' ..
Most are quite happy that their 993 is a long term proposition, praise enough for any car :thumbs:

+1 I didnt get the impression it was biased one way or the other, just balanced, each to his/her own etc!

I'm sure someone else will be along shortly to provide more "input" :)

P.S. I like ALL 911's, any age, any type, they are all a bit exclusive and special in lots of different ways.
 
These "professional" motoring writers really do take me to the fair. Generally these guys have little real world knowledge of what they are talking about and do seem to pitch their articles to what they have been told is conventional wisdom without undertaking any credible independant research.

40 years might be right when he said-


I'm sure Andrew Frankel wrote something almost identical to this a few issues ago in a GT Performance Porsche.


I sometimes find it hard to reconcile what these guys say with the actuality of the car that they are attempting to describe.

The author says of the 993-

"When you change gear, you can feel the cogs engage and hear the cam belts working in the engine."

Isn't he the boy that can hear the cam belts working in the engine!!! :roll:

The 993 uses timing chains rather than cam belts. :lol:


it does look like Jobbing writers go with the flow set by other writers and pitch the 993 as the ultimate development of the air cooled 911 and then go on to wax lyrical about build quality, fixtures and fittings and upholstery carpets etc.
If you compare and contrast the build quality of the 964 and the 993 you will see that actually the 964 represented the peak in Porsche build quality, NOT the 993.
You have to remember that the 993 was conceived at a time when Porsche were under severe financial strain and so build quality suffered as a result.



While a few engineering advances found on the 993 are improvements, Multi link rear suspension and varioram induction spring to mind, there are many flaws in the 993 that are the result of cost cutting measures. The 964 is a much better built car and IMO is the pinnacle of air cooled traditional build quality.

The thing is though, while the 993 has been hyped up by these writers and over valued as a result, the 964 is under valued and this is where opportunities exist for buying a fantastic car for reasonable money! :)
 
I can't say I know the two cars so well that I know the answer to this Achtung , but maybe you can elaborate on what the 964 had that was taken from the 993 due to cost cutting measures?
 
ballcock said:
I can't say I know the two cars so well that I know the answer to this Achtung , but maybe you can elaborate on what the 964 had that was taken from the 993 due to cost cutting measures?

Hi ballcock,

The 964 heat shields are made from stainless steel and will last the life of the car

Similarly, the rear pu support bars are solidly constructed and are not an issue.

The corrosion protection is superior on the 964 with fewer body corrosion issues.

The 964 has cast aluminium rocker covers against the 993 with plastic items that need to be replaced within the life of the car.

The seats in the 964 are of more substantial construction and use a thicker and higher quality leather.

No door check strap issues with the 964

Etc ....
 
Lets be honest few of these journo's own 911's and drive them day in day out. They run them around for a few hours then write something about them(after researching previous articles no doubt).


"Will the Real Porsche 911 Step Forward? "

or

"the 997 feels like a descendant of the original 1963 car"

eh?... :floor:
 
ACHTUNG said:
ballcock said:
I can't say I know the two cars so well that I know the answer to this Achtung , but maybe you can elaborate on what the 964 had that was taken from the 993 due to cost cutting measures?

Hi ballcock,

The 964 heat shields are made from stainless steel and will last the life of the car

Similarly, the rear pu support bars are solidly constructed and are not an issue.

The corrosion protection is superior on the 964 with fewer body corrosion issues.

The 964 has cast aluminium rocker covers against the 993 with plastic items that need to be replaced within the life of the car.

The seats in the 964 are of more substantial construction and use a thicker and higher quality leather.

No door check strap issues with the 964

Etc ....
Mostly fair points A ,
but I have to say 'phew' , there's nothing there that's in anyway a biggie as far as I'm concerned. it's all small stuff really , except perhaps the corrosion suggestion , but I have to say , in my experience , I've seen some very ropey perforated 964's , as well as some surprisingly rusted 993's , this area can be very subjective as to how the car was used , where it was kept , whether it saw wrong side of the ditch etc.

The one area that the 993 suffers from rust , and is pretty unacceptable is around the frames ,but to be fair , this is more to do with needing to keep the frames the same as the 964 due budget but wanting to bond windows to reduce noise , make the car more modern looking etc. It's still a small point , as long as you keep and eye and get the work done PROPERLY when it appears. There are however many many improvements over the 964, no need to mention them , you know em as well as I do! Dont get me wrong though , I'd have a 964 in the morning , it's the most underrated 911 going.

My feeling is that although Porsche were cash strapped when designing the 993 ,and they had had the japs in to show them the way re-'just in time' techniques which helped reduce man hours on the manufacture of each car , they still put the best of everything into these cars re-interior , engine and running gear.
They still hadn't come around to the idea of building to a budget/ limited lifespan. This came in with the 986/996.
 
For myself, I can't comment on the mechanical comparisons of each Porsche variant. My idea of engine work is picking up the phone to a garage. However, I have driven a 993 for 3 years, a 997 C2S for one year and now again a 993 turbo. The 997 was a gr8 2009 car, its all very slick inside and much more interesting than any saloon car (obviously!). But for me all the safety gizmos get in the way. It did have great ability, but none of it delivered in an interesting manner. Yes you can go faster, feel safer and dominate a road – but is that all one is looking for. Well clearly not if one has reverted back to a 993. The 993 experience is just some much more fun. For me it was nicely summarised when I took the 993 into an OPG for a check up. The engineer commented that the older car allows you drive the car the way you want to. The modern car limits and smoothers your driving.
How many people recall being hugely impressed when a car had an airbag! Now you can't twitch in a modern car for them! Don't you love the slim air bagless column connecting the roof to the dash board on a 993
Who needs to see the Oh so cool double cup holder in a 997.
The 993 aids weight lose, you can't be overweight and fit in the thing! ...have you seen the size of some of the 997 drivers!!???....just like the car, overweight.
Another thing, by the time I ditched my 997 the paint was bubbling off the front bumper – is this a £70k car or a cheap Ford? On a 993 you get paint chips from stones, dust and unsuspecting flies.
On the 997 the plastic gear on the centre consol was showing through white underneath!
And another thing – the 997 manages to continue the tradition of the silly infill between the two front seats. 993 a useless cassette holder, 997 a cheap wobbly pen/money holder, 15 years and still not improved.

Please excuse some of the emotive excesses of these comments written after lunch and 2 espressos, but I hope it conveys my view that newer is not necessarily better. I put my name down for a new 998 at my local garage about 3 years ago. When they call me up to confirm interest I will get a buzz of enjoyment telling them to stick it! (Hey got to get your kicks somehow!)
 
This seems to be the second thread, following the Russell Bulgin article I posted a while ago, where "40 Years of Glory" seems to have the needle with the 993 gaining positive press. As far as the Bulgin article was concerned the man wrote it in 1997, at the launch of the 996. He was hardly trying to shore up future 993 prices was he?

You have to take all articles written by the motoring press with a pinch of salt. I've kept loads of old mags from the 90's and some of them make for comical reading now. For example THE hot hatch of the early 90's wasn't a Golf or Peugeot GTI...no, no it was in fact a Fiat Tipo 16V!!! How many of those do you see now? How desirable are they/were they?

From own experience I had a lovely 205 1.9GTI that I owned from new. I swallowed the hype and chopped it for a Clio Williams. Good car but not nearly twice as good as the 205 that replaced it (it cost me precisely double the then value of the Pug) For me, that was where the scepticism set in.

The mags get it right sometimes, I loved my first Mx5 (in 92 NOBODY had one or so it seemed) likewise my Elise was a massively rewarding car to drive. But they are completely as likely to get it wrong as well.

Suggesting that 993 prices are being talked up by those with a vested interest is just laughable. I looked for a 993 for over a year and fortunately/unfortunately they do hold their value rather well, especially in black/silver/blue with black trim and a manual gearbox. The C2 variant even more so. Its frustrating when you are trying to buy but probably a good place to be should you wish to sell.

I had a 986 Boxster S followed by a 987. Great cars. But I didn't want a 996. The C4S and turbo's have an appeal, as does a GT3 but they dont hold the appeal for me that the previous generation cars did.

40, your posts sound bitter to me, assuming you have a 996 and enjoy it why should you care less what others are saying about it? I read criticism of the 993 from some re its dated interior and the like but personally I couldn't care less. Its what I wanted so I bought one. The fact others covet it and holds its value is a bonus but ultimately inconsequential to me anyways.
 
ballcock said:
ACHTUNG said:
ballcock said:
I can't say I know the two cars so well that I know the answer to this Achtung , but maybe you can elaborate on what the 964 had that was taken from the 993 due to cost cutting measures?

Hi ballcock,

The 964 heat shields are made from stainless steel and will last the life of the car

Similarly, the rear pu support bars are solidly constructed and are not an issue.

The corrosion protection is superior on the 964 with fewer body corrosion issues.

The 964 has cast aluminium rocker covers against the 993 with plastic items that need to be replaced within the life of the car.

The seats in the 964 are of more substantial construction and use a thicker and higher quality leather.

No door check strap issues with the 964

Etc ....
Mostly fair points A ,
but I have to say 'phew' , there's nothing there that's in anyway a biggie as far as I'm concerned. it's all small stuff really , except perhaps the corrosion suggestion , but I have to say , in my experience , I've seen some very ropey perforated 964's , as well as some surprisingly rusted 993's , this area can be very subjective as to how the car was used , where it was kept , whether it saw wrong side of the ditch etc.

The one area that the 993 suffers from rust , and is pretty unacceptable is around the frames ,but to be fair , this is more to do with needing to keep the frames the same as the 964 due budget but wanting to bond windows to reduce noise , make the car more modern looking etc. It's still a small point , as long as you keep and eye and get the work done PROPERLY when it appears. There are however many many improvements over the 964, no need to mention them , you know em as well as I do! Dont get me wrong though , I'd have a 964 in the morning , it's the most underrated 911 going.

My feeling is that although Porsche were cash strapped when designing the 993 ,and they had had the japs in to show them the way re-'just in time' techniques which helped reduce man hours on the manufacture of each car , they still put the best of everything into these cars re-interior , engine and running gear.
They still hadn't come around to the idea of building to a budget/ limited lifespan. This came in with the 986/996.

It's true to say that Porsche did get the big items of the 993 right. I particularly like the arrangement of the rear multilink suspension. As I said in my earlier post it was build quality issues that showed the difference between the 964 and the 993.
As regards the rear suspension, I remember examining my car in detail before I bought it and thinking -"What a brilliant piece of engineering" then when I looked at the PU hangers and heat shields it was really bizare....

It was as though Porsche employed their "A" list engineers to do the suspension, then sent them on to another task when they were finished and brought in a team of "Z" listers to do the heat shields and rear bumper. It was `that bad!! :nooo:

The 964, on the other hand reflects an older set of values, where "engineering excellence" was of primary importance and where the execution and detail was not compromised.

Yes, people might point to the first 964's and say that some of them leaked oil at the cylinder heads because Porsche did not use gaskets between the mating surfaces....

The thing is though, those early oil leak problems were more a result of Porsche's arrogance and their unquestioned self belief.

Porsche took the view that engineering excellence was of such a high standard and their machining so perfect that mating joints would seal perfectly and so the need for gaskets was not an issue...
Yes- from hindsight this was flawed thinking but there is something about that mind set that sets Porsche of the past in a different league to other manufacturers and is IMO the essence of what made the Porsche name synonymous with world beating quality through engineering excellence.

IMO The introduction of the 993 marked the start of a slippery slope. I am NOT saying that the 993 was a bad car, rather that I can see the beginnings of a cost cutting philosophy being executed that was not evident in the 964 and previous 911's... The 3.2 Carrera was also an excellent car as regards build quality BTW.
 

New Threads

Forum statistics

Threads
124,633
Messages
1,442,324
Members
49,078
Latest member
prime007
Back
Top