997 Gen2 engine, fixed problems that were in Gen1?

[1kgixer]

Hi,
I've joined this forum in the hope that I can gain some objective fact based answers relating to the 3.8 litre Gen2 997 engine (MA101 / 9A1?) in comparison to the earlier 997 3.8 (M97?)

Specifically I've been looking and reading a lot of materials about what sound truly shocking IMS / RMS engine failures on the 997's, and yes I've read each and every thread and online article I can find so I'm not blind to the myth or fact discussions...

However as this would be my first Porsche (my previous 7 cars in 20 years have all been Mercedes and covered many hundreds of thousands of miles with zero mechnical issues and zero failures, just pure regular servicing needed) and I've been looking at cost wise late gen 1 C2S 997's (around £45k and less than about 15k mikes).

What now troubles me greatly is all the feedback about engine failures at very low mileages and whilst I appreciate the performance difference between Merc engine and the 997, anything that lets go in less than 20k miles is not going to get my hand reaching for the wallet to buy one, regardless of an OPC warranty or not

That said the Gen 2 is a completely new engine as I understand it so has that dealt with all the engine problems (real or mythical related!). If it has then any purchase I make of a gen 2 997 would have to wait at least a year until prices drop below the 50k mark I think?

appreciate any factual advice and hopefully it will build some lost confidence I'm feeling about trying this marque.

NB: although previously I've run high milegaes each year I now do far less around 10 -12k per year so not a big milege user as was the case with the merc's

thanks
andy

 

[Maxie]

Whilst there has been several vast improvements on the Gen 2 engine over the Gen 1, you may still have to wait a while before Gen 2 cars fall to the £45k bracket especially if they are the S models you are after. Having said that, some have said that Gen 2 engines will suffer a build up of coke around cylinder bores (?) after it's done a certain mileage by virtue of it being DFI; I am sure someione will correct me if I am wrong on that technicality.

I have a Gen 1 S model and normally keep the revs below 3k on start up until the oil gauge reads just over 90C (usually takes about 15 mins of gentle driving) and at the end of any drive I let the engine idle for about 2-3 mins before taking the key out of the ignition. It's the little things like these that will prolong the life of the earlier engine. This along with routine servicing and you should be fine with a Gen 1 car.

These engines cannot be treated in the same vein as a Mercedes engine....for a start, they are relatively small capacity for the outputs they produce (Gen 1 S is 355bhp, Gen 2 S is 385bhp - that's more than 100bhp/litre in the new engine). I like to think of the Porsche engine as a race engiine that needs to be treated with the utmost respect. As well as doing the above, if you take care of the other stuff like checking the oil level and other simple maintenance checks, then the car will look after you.

The reason you hear of so many engine failures is because if things go wrong with a car, the internet chat rooms are buzzing with pretty pi**ed off people. Compare that to the people who actually don't report anything about their car because it is running so well. Sometimes I do wonder if the reasons why engines fail is because the drivers are not treating them with the tactility they deserve.

Anyway, the above is all in my humble opinion.....hope you enjoy the seearch and find the right car for you. Post up any examples you would like us to pass comment on.

~ Maxie :thumb:

 

[spyderman]

Hi,
That said the Gen 2 is a completely new engine as I understand it so has that dealt with all the engine problems (real or mythical related!). If it has then any purchase I make of a gen 2 997 would have to wait at least a year until prices drop below the 50k mark I think?

Thankfully very few problems appearing to date with the DFI engines - one or two coking issues that seem to be common with other makes that use the same technology. The biggest "breakthrough" is the omission of the intermediate shaft, so the catastrophic failures that can result from an IMS bearing failure have finally gone.

At the OPCs they're currently down to around £57k for PDK C2Ss. If you're willing to buy privately and only want a manual (which seem to be a touch cheaper) you might just find a high mileage one for low fifties. If you're willing to wait, prices will take a hit once the 997 replacement is launched towards the end of 2011. Uncertainty over oil prices might also play a part...

 

[1kgixer]

thanks very much indeed Maxie and Spyderman for your very insightful and informative replies, thats exactly the type of real world information I was hoping to learn.
I'll certainly keep you posted and any other info from any other members welcomed

 

[Andyuk911]

An interesting read ..

http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/3392

However, it is correct a Direct Injection petrol engine will develop coke on the valves ..... I don't know how bad it gets on 997 Gen II engine, but if you look at the MRC website it will give you an idea ..

 

[apw2007]

I don't personally know any 911 owner who has suffered engine failure but know two people whose Mercedes engines went bang.

IMO Mercedes owners are less likely to be members of a forum so are unlikely to be posting the fault. Porsche owners on the other hand are often enthusiasts and will be members of forums which means faults are going to get more publicity making you think Porsche have more faults than other manufacturers (hope that makes sense).

But if you worried, get a car with a warranty :thumb:

 

[Andyuk911]

So the IMS is gone AND

re this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKpAzs_V1SE Last few seconds of vid

No more RMS leaks ... :thumb:

 

[apw2007]

So the IMS is gone AND

re this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKpAzs_V1SE Last few seconds of vid

No more RMS leaks ... :thumb:

Think we might need to wait and see

 

[muz911]

Is the gen 1 engine problem covered by the opc warranty?

 

[mark pearce]

From my experience i think there are 2 things you need to consider
ensure it comes with a warranty that will pay a £9/10,000 claim should an engine go pop.
take a porsche warranty if you are worried about the engine scenario, £180 + vat for the 111 point check then £989 for 12 months or £1899 for 2 years but you have to give the OPC a copy of the v5 to prove you have owned the car for 90 days, ( otherwise my cars would come with a Porsche warranty)
i'll make my sales pitch then move on, all my cars come with a 12 month personal warranty and the offer of if you would like a Porsche warranty after 90 days i'll give you a £500 cheque towards it.
Why am i prepared to give a personal warranty?
I used to give a Porsche warranty on my cars but the 90 day rule stops me, i then gave warranties from Autoprotect but having had a claim for a new engine and it taking them 7 weeks to set
tle it, from a customer service point of view i needed something better.
So i had a meeting with my local OPC service manager and the girl who actually does all the warranty claims and paper work, obviously from my point of view giving a personal guarantee effectively gives me a potentioal £10,000 liability on each car i sell, so we had a chat about engines basically, how reliable are the cars, how many warranty claims to they handle etc, after all i'm never going to get any feedback from Porsche Gb, but th egirl who as part of her daily job, should know what really goes on,it appeared that OPC exeter the previous year changed 4 engines, now with my warranty i put £900 a car into separate account to build up the fund so to speak, the advice i was given from the service manager was that in 18 months tiome i should be considerably better off than giving a warranty co's £900 a time.
His experience was that the cars are fundamentally more robust that the internet suggests,

In the 7 years i ve been selling Porsche, i know of 2 of my cars that have had an engine go, both for the oval cylinder bore problem not IMS failure, i feel that the pesonal nature of my sales means that a customer would contact me first before they would of contacted Porsche or a warranty co, 1 of these cars was in warranty, the other wasn't, in the non covered car Porsche made a contribution towards a new engine and the owner had to pay for the labour, so he had a new engine ( with a 2 year warranty) for about £4000, an expensive shock, but if he took out a Porsche warranty it would of cost him £2000,

I would still advise anyone to have a Porsche warranty, i get the impression from feedback from all the forums that a lot of owner get a fair bit of what most people would term wwear and tear items replaced under Porsche warranty, dont forget that a warranty in a warranty companies view is mechanical breakdown Insurance and does not cover wear and tear. I think wear you really get value from a OPC warranty is when the miles creep up on a car, i think part of warranty claims experience is helped when your selling low mileage cars, if you buy a 10,000 mile car from me and do 5000 miles in it, i think you would agree you would expect it to me more reliable than if you had bought a 35000 mile car. But also sorry bit of sales pitch again, because my cars are Porsche serviced and inspected are they of a higher standard than those prepared using in house technicians or the guy down the road who used to work for Porsche?


When you look around the net it appears that every manufacturer has its problems, BMW have had the nikasil cylinder bore isuue, Dodgy vanos on E36 M3's, crankshaft troubles on E46 M3's, Turbos going on 320 diesels.

The problem i still believe is the technical engineering on modern cars is incredibly advanced but if only water cooled cars were carved from the granite that 993's were, the accountants have saved money but at the expense of longevity.

As a final thought you pay £400-1200 a year to ensure your Porsche aginst accident damage and theft, so why not £900 a year to cover it against mechanical failure ?

Regarding RMS leaks, Porsche have changed their guidelines last year, assuming an RMS leak is a 111 point failure or is leaking enough for Porsche to change it under warranty on either a car under manufacturers warranty or extended warranty. It used to be if there was 'mist' or a leak, Porsche would change it or it bacame a 111 pt check failure, now it has to be an oil drip on the base of the crank case, misting/ staining is no longer considered RMS failure

Apologies to anyone who thinks this has been a sales pitch , it was merely meant to illustrate my experience and the investigations i continue to make both to look after my customers and my reputation

 

[1kgixer]

Thanks Mark, thats a very insightful perspective.
Appreciate the expertise

 

[muz911]

doess that mean that the fault is covered by an opc warrany?

 

[Ocean Blue]

Andyuk911,
Good read on the Automotive engineering, added it to my favourite list. :thumb: