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Detonation/Knock explained with photos

DynoMike

Albert Park
Joined
25 May 2012
Messages
1,687
A recent fuel octane thread has got me thinking, so I have decided to show the forum what running insufficient fuel octane for the prevailing conditions can do.

I'm sure many folks on here have heard the terms 'Pinking, Detonation or Knock'. Basically, those terms are three ways of expressing the same thing. A good many will know what these terms mean, but for those that don't I thought I would try to share what the phenomena is.

I will use the term detonation (det) for the purposes of this piece. So what is det? It is the auto-ignition of end gasses ahead of an advancing flame front. As an analogy, imagine if you will a balloon being inflated within a bottle, with the contents of the balloon containing the Air/Fuel mixture being ignited. The Air/Fuel mixture is also present outside of the balloon but is being pressurised and heated by the advancing flame-front (the balloon). The pressure being exerted within the cylinder is being applied to the piston crown, along with the cylinder head, gasket and cylinder walls and crucially, the unburnt portion of gaseous mixture. If the pressure and temperature ahead of the flame-front rise high enough, the mixture can spontaneously ignite in an uncontrolled manner. The instantaneous pressure and temperature resulting can cause severe damage to engine components. Localised intense heat can melt aluminium components, picking out pieces of the material from piston crowns and cylinder heads. I have posted some pictures of an engine, which was pretty much ruined by this destructive condition.

So what is the 'knocking' sound that is audible from time to time? There has been some good research done in this area, suggesting that the sound we hear when detonation occurs is actually a sonic boom being transmitted through the engine structure.

Some may find it surprising that detonation manifests itself on the colder side of the chamber. It always occurs away from the spark plug area, particularly if there are any nooks and crannies for mixture to hide in, as the photos will show. The reason it takes place on the cold side (intake side)? The flame front advances towards the hottest parts of the chamber first, as it takes less energy to ignite the mixture contained in this area, hence delaying the combustion on the colder side, leaving it vulnerable to the increasing pressure heading it's way.

There can be many single causes, such as over advanced ignition timing, a leaner than optimum Air/Fuel ratio, too high a compression ratio, too low an octane rating fuel, or too high a combustion chamber temperature. Combining two or more of those, particularly in turbocharged engines, can be catastrophic. Most, if not all modern engines, have closed-loop sensors that can detect the onset of detonation and trim the ignition back to safe levels on a cylinder by cylinder basis. Bear in mind here that the problem has already occurred and that the sensors are reacting after the fact! This is why on a high performance engine that the manufacturer states 'use 98 RON or higher', it is always a good idea to do so.

There has also been discussion as to which octane number is the most relevant, Motor or Research. Both are arrived at by testing in a CFR engine and compared to a fuel of known detonation resistance (n-heptane if memory serves me well). The research number (again from memory) is arrived at by testing at 600 rpm with an induction charge temperature of 150 degrees Fahrenheit, whereas the motor value is derived from the same variable compression ratio engine running at 900 rpm and an induction charge temperature of 300 degrees Fahrenheit. Personally, I believe the US system of R+M/2 is the best way to categorise the octane rating. A little light reading on the subject can be found in a book entitled 'The Internal Combustion Engine In Theory and Practice' by Charles Fayette-Taylor.

I recently spoke to a chap who does the engine testing at a large fuel company, who backed up what 'Cheburetor ' said about base fuels and additives. He said raising the Research octane number was a damned sight easier than gaining one point of Motor octane. He also confirmed that the company he works for state the minimum octane rating found when sampling all of their fuels, rather than the maximum. He believed that was not the case for all fuel companies.....Food for thought.


So, some photographs for you. Picture one is cylinder one and so on until we reach the very damaged cylinders five and six. This head has come to us for repair, the client suspects low octane fuel was mistakenly put in the race car during a long race.

Cylinder 1 Note the sandblasted appearance at between 7 and 8 O'clock both around the valve seat and on the chamber face.

IMGcyl1_zps81adf8f4.jpg


Cylinder 2 is still healthy, possibly as a result of the exhaust scavenging characteristics of this particular engine

Cylinder2_zps60eed874.jpg


Cylinder 3, things are starting to deteriorate rapidly. Heavy detonation has started to erode the cylinder head (and piston crown) at around 7 O'clock to 9 O' clock in the photograph

Cylinder3_zps6bc565c1.jpg


A close up of cylinder 3 showing the same damage in more detail.

Cylinder4_zps9db4448a.jpg


Cylinder 5 showing the heavy removal of material, again, furthest away from the spark plug and in a cooler area of the combustion chamber.

Cylinder5_zps44a25ebf.jpg


Cylinder 6 shows total destruction and melting of the head. It is probable that due to the constant spiking of cylinder pressure due to detonation, the head gasket gave up the ghost and allowed some water in.

Cylinder6_zps83517708.jpg



As you can see, detonation can be very destructive. Which is why I will always use the best fuel possible for any high performance engine, unless the manufacturer states otherwise.

As a footnote, I hope this little lot is received in the manner in which it was intended; that being to inform rather than preach so to speak.

It would also appear that Photobucket won't directly show the photographs in the post? I hope you guys are able to see them, or all this lot will have been in vain!!

Mike.
 
infrasilver said:
I used to have fun dealing with detonation many moons ago trying to get the fuel/Nitrous ratio correct on my old V8 Drag race car.

Nice write up mike.

Thanks for sorting the photos out Chris.

Nitrous.....Now that really is a can of worms! When working at Mountune years ago, I had to fit a Nitrous kit to a high-mileage Porsche 924, of all things.

The engine was breathing a little before we started as it was already on 88k miles. Needless to say, the fogger nozzle coked almost straight away (on the fuel side only), meaning raw Nitrous was injected into 1 cylinder. It blew the top ring land clean off the piston within about quarter of a mile!

The trick with nitrous systems is to get the right amount of ignition retard vs level of injected horsepower (as I'm sure you are well aware!) I once dyno tested a 570hp Small Block Ford which leapt to 764 at the flick of a switch. Mental. It almost flipped over on the test bed. A few weeks later, we had a Big Block Chevy on... 600 street horses, 882 with a single stage nitrous kit on. All good fun but very temperamental to set up.

Was yours a Rover V8?
 
DynoMike said:
infrasilver said:
I used to have fun dealing with detonation many moons ago trying to get the fuel/Nitrous ratio correct on my old V8 Drag race car.

Nice write up mike.

Thanks for sorting the photos out Chris.

:thumb:

DynoMike said:
Nitrous.....Now that really is a can of worms! When working at Mountune years ago, I had to fit a Nitrous kit to a high-mileage Porsche 924, of all things.

The engine was breathing a little before we started as it was already on 88k miles. Needless to say, the fogger nozzle coked almost straight away (on the fuel side only), meaning raw Nitrous was injected into 1 cylinder. It blew the top ring land clean off the piston within about quarter of a mile!

The trick with nitrous systems is to get the right amount of ignition retard vs level of injected horsepower (as I'm sure you are well aware!) I once dyno tested a 570hp Small Block Ford which leapt to 764 at the flick of a switch. Mental. It almost flipped over on the test bed. A few weeks later, we had a Big Block Chevy on... 600 street horses, 882 with a single stage nitrous kit on. All good fun but very temperamental to set up.

Was yours a Rover V8?

It was a Rover engine in an Opel Manta, mildly tuned, hot cams, Holley carb etc, I used to race it in the Rover V8 Challenge for a few seasons.
The N2O injection was on a micro switch and activated at full throttle only but as you say at the flick of a switch it would go from about 270bhp to 420bhp, the fun was, mine was road legal and I was always booting it out of bends, I was only 22 when I built it from a bare shell.
 
Holy thread revival batman!

Having experienced knock for the first time ever in my turbo whilst data logging - due to a seized actuator which was undetected before the knocking - how sturdy is a typical engine?

For example I only heard 3 'pop' sounds like the pop from an exhaust on the overrun, but on hard acceleration, accompanied each time by a split second loss of power.

Luckily the car is still working perfectly now the actuator has been freed (and before the doom mongers start directing me towards a cylinder leak test), but it got me wondering "how much is too much?"

I mean is one single det enough to grenade an otherwise healthy engine? Or is the damage more cumulative over time and incidence?

:?:
 
infrasilver said:
Your knock sensors should of picked it up and retarded the timing to accommodate.

I hear you Infra, which is why its more of a general question. I was using my car as an example but as I say, I'm not too worried about it tbh.

At the moment I've got some sort of 'thirst for technical knowledge' thing going on - evidenced by my rather amateur thread on seized actuators and datalogging....

In fact I'm sure you are right that the timing would be retarded, but it didn't appear to be on the datalog. This is a tuned car though and maybe the map which controls how and when timing should be retarded has also been altered. I don't know, but what I do know is that its created some curiosity in me...
 
Ragpicker the popcorn is to munch while I'm soaking up the learning - I like threads like this :grin:
 
pjvenda said:
infrasilver said:
Your knock sensors should of picked it up and retarded the timing to accommodate.

But it might have taken a few milliseconds/ignitions to compensate, hence the bangs?

It will of, yes.

Rag,

Mite be worth talking to Ken to see why it's happening, could be running lean at a certain point in the map. How modified are you ie larger injectors?
 
infrasilver said:
pjvenda said:
infrasilver said:
Your knock sensors should of picked it up and retarded the timing to accommodate.

But it might have taken a few milliseconds/ignitions to compensate, hence the bangs?

It will of, yes.

Rag,

Mite be worth talking to Ken to see why it's happening, could be running lean at a certain point in the map. How modified are you ie larger injectors?

I think it was happening due to a seized wastegate causing it to run very lean. It was in the lower revs that it happened though, say 3krpm. I've since freed the wastegate and its not happened since. I saw 1.5bar at the time (normally runs 1.1). The mods so far are in my sig.

Its not got bigger injectors at the moment although it will have in the next month. I've discussed my car recently with Ken (not about this particular issue) and he's been very helpful as usual.

Again, I'm more interested in how catastrophic det can be, and whether a single episode could be enough to ruin an engine, or whether (as demonstrated above by Mike) it is a gradual thing like water eroding the walls of a building. Also, how common is it? I personally have never experienced it in any of my cars before and they have always been modified.

Maybe its always been happening but I've not been listening.... :eek:
 

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