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wizard993
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 11982


1966 Singer Gazelle

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...just keep it under 2500/3000(max) rpm until it gets to 80 deg but don't load the engine by using too low a gear.

I usually let mine idle from cold for about 1min before driving off but I never let it warm-up sitting on the driveway.

If your tech won't fit a LTT take it to someone who will as its not too difficult a job and is essential IMO. The most difficult part is bleeding/purging the system of air which has to be done with care.
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Last edited by wizard993 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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HarryH
Montreal


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 586
Location: The Shire


PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Low Thermostat Test Results Reply with quote

jolyonmcd wrote:
At the moment don't exeed 50 before oil temp reaches 90, takes about 15 minutes and ocassionally give it a blast on a motorway.


I'm sure this is what you mean, but its not about speed per se. Drive smoothly and sympathetically until oil is up to temp. By that I mean avoid high revs (my benchmark is 3k initially and 4k after the first couple miles), and avoid harsh acceleration at any revs or speed. Add the specific point (even, in fact especially, when fully warmed up) of avoiding really hard acceleration from a standstill at the lights and I reckon you're doing everything you can to be kind. Apart from that, drive it like you stole it!
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plavix
Kyalami


Joined: 16 Sep 2013
Posts: 1915
Location: Birmingham

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I let mine warm up for the minute or two while on choke until the revs drop below 1K on idle. First ten minutes of driving I don't go above 2K, next ten minutes of driving I don't go above 3K. This usually gets me to an oil temp between 80 degrees and 90 degrees. It never runs for less than twenty minutes, even if it means I'm sitting in it waiting.

And then I drive it like I stole it letting it rev through the range in higher gears keeping the torque low. I rev up on downshift to meet the revs required. I never blast off in first and I don't floor it at traffic lights. It's not dignified. thumbsup

No idea if it's the right thing to do, but it demonstrates sympathy for the engine until everything is warm and toasty.
 
  
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HarryH
Montreal


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 586
Location: The Shire


PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plavix wrote:
I never blast off in first and I don't floor it at traffic lights. It's not dignified.


+1, like your style. I rather like letting the Nova's with their purple under body LEDs and their catering baked bean can exhausts burn me off the lights. Dignity is all: a gentleman should be fast but never furious.
Very Happy
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jolyonmcd
Newbie


Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 13



PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: low temperature thermosat test Reply with quote

Thanks to all for the swift and sound advice. Very Happy

New phrase for me to quote to the garlic eaters here - Dignity is all: a gentleman should be fast but never furious - love it. thumbsup
 
  
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MJA911
Sepang


Joined: 10 Dec 2013
Posts: 2870
Location: Berkshire

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HarryH wrote:
plavix wrote:
I never blast off in first and I don't floor it at traffic lights. It's not dignified.


+1, like your style. I rather like letting the Nova's with their purple under body LEDs and their catering baked bean can exhausts burn me off the lights. Dignity is all: a gentleman should be fast but never furious.
Very Happy


That is sooooo true, it annoys them if you don't react, definitely the way to go. Sorry, going off subject. Then again, I've got my car booked in for Monday to fit the LTT, change the oil/filter and fit a magnetic sump plug, so I'm allowed Thumb
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Zantaz
Suzuka


Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 1161



PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MJA997 wrote:

I've got my car booked in for Monday to fit the LTT, change the oil/filter and fit a magnetic sump plug, so I'm allowed Thumb


Where are you getting it done and are they supplying the LTT?
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Zantaz
Suzuka


Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 1161



PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plavix wrote:
I let mine warm up for the minute or two while on choke until the revs drop below 1K on idle. First ten minutes of driving I don't go above 2K, next ten minutes of driving I don't go above 3K. This usually gets me to an oil temp between 80 degrees and 90 degrees. It never runs for less than twenty minutes, even if it means I'm sitting in it waiting.


Interesting I thought the Porsche Owners manual stated that you should drive off immediately and not sit stationary.
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MJA911
Sepang


Joined: 10 Dec 2013
Posts: 2870
Location: Berkshire

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zantaz wrote:
Where are you getting it done and are they supplying the LTT?



Local garage, but he used to work in an OPC and had a Turbo, 996 I think. I'm providing all the parts, inc the Mobil 1, LTT is Hartech.
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

carruthers wrote:
Indeed wasz 'forum experts' are indeed limited in their resources and this should be borne in mind by those looking to follow their advice, always better to listen to or seek guidance from those who do know what they are talking about. In this case it would seem that following our 'forum experts' recommended mod number 2 actually makes matters worse.


Unfortunately, much like the scientific analogy made, knowledge is an evolutionary process.

Baz updated his new findings on this current thread, I did my limited (by measurement resources and sample engines) over two years ago in July 2011.

Now I am not attempting to compare myself with Newton, but we don't think he is an idiot because 300 years later Einstein updated the rules, and we certainly don't devalue his limited research.

At least I do my own research and any post to that affect has been with the genuine intent to help.

But I do genuinely believe (irrespective of the relative temperatures experienced at the entry and exit of the 3.4 M96), that the proportional cooling chamber design on the 3.4 M96 is the reason both my experiments and conclusions differ from the advice for the latter (poorer) uniform cooling design of the 3.6 M96 and 3.8 M97.

And to be fair, it was me who suggested that physical block difference as the cause of the discrepancies. No one else had previously discussed that very relevant point or even attempted to deconstruct my findings on that material difference in the block design compared to the results of the later design.

I also stand by my assertion that once the thermostats (of either flavour) are fully opened, by definition, only additional cooling can be achieved by larger or more rads.

And even after I have learnt from this newest update from Baz, I would advise (and by my actions endorse) fitting a third centre rad if any engine spent most of its time exceeding the fully open temperature of its thermostat.

And although various replies have related to other regimes, and for those I have no argument and now better understand the issues of the thermostat siting (particularly on the later fundamentally poorer cooled blocks), but I don't think this specific suggestion/point has disagreement.

I will try not to give up on you Carruthers until you understand what I said and why.
 
  
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carruthers
Monza


Joined: 28 Dec 2013
Posts: 200



PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you GT4, I guess in the absence of evidence of your engineering qualifications, prowess and achievements then one just might prefer to go with advice from Hartech. I will not be fitting a centre rad as it won't address the problem of heat soaking and indeed will exacerbate the problem. How kind not to 'give up on me'
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just sorry it took Baz 2.5 years to update my findings.

If nothing else, placing those original findings/data and my methods and reasoning in the public domain was to invite peer review and debate.

But I didn't see any contributions from you previously?


I worry for the membership numbers if we need a relevant verified academic or vocational qualification before we can comment on a thread, or I guess I should have known when I first did the experiments that someone else would improve on that knowledge years later: yep you got me there, my clairvoyant certificate is a fake Rolling Eyes
 
  
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carruthers
Monza


Joined: 28 Dec 2013
Posts: 200



PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, recently returned to the Porsche fold and although I have some experience of auto engineering I do not consider myself qualified to advise on such complex and potentially expensive issues as bore scoring.
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look forward to seeing a contribution on something you are qualified to opine on Thumb
 
  
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carruthers
Monza


Joined: 28 Dec 2013
Posts: 200



PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry GT4, you obviously take any disagreement personally and it is not my intention to be rude.
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't think you were rude, I thought you were unqualified.
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 16298
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT4 and Carruthers. = Friends now please. Thumb
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flowers

There, all better now.
 
  
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carruthers
Monza


Joined: 28 Dec 2013
Posts: 200



PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you chaps. As you can see GT4, I have never claimed to be qualified hence I don't advise people, I feel that you fit the same mould.
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course both the dynamic nature of knowledge and specific to this topic, the impact of the third radiator lead to perhaps reassessing something that Baz has suggested for years to be the reason for the Tip's excess chance of bore scoring.

Currently Hartech suggest the very slightly higher probability of Tip bore scoring (counter intuitive given the slightly different ownership demographic and usage) is down to the higher torque experienced by driving off in gear 2 (a software Tip curiosity).

The Tip and X51 etc centre rad fitment are identically fitted/plumbed coolant systems, and in fact are identical in system circulation when the additional Tip heat exchanger thermostat is shut - ie cold.

Now given the possibility of the standard fitted third centre rad being the actual cause, perhaps this piece of received wisdom needs to be revisited.

Either the centre rad does present significant downsides vis a vis bore scoring during low temp use (and thus the Tip gear selection factor is less or of no relevance) or the extra cooling effects of the centre rad are the factor that is of low or no relevance.

In any case, the best approximation for the downside affect of fitting a third centre rad must be proxied by any negligible excess probability Tip bore scoring vs manual with no centre rad.
 
  
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