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Maxie
Yas Marina


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 8386
Location: London


PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mj_jonesy wrote:
The LTT I ordered for my 997 turned up today so I know what I'll be doing this weekend Smile


Make sure you have a comprehensive set of tools! Start early to catch the best of the daylight hours.

~ Maxie thumbsup
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HoopsUK
Newbie


Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 37
Location: Perth, Western Australia


PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm wondering, in my case if its worth doing this?
The car has well over 70K Miles in a climate that regularly sees 40deg plus ambient temperatures in the summer. Therefore, it's probably safe to say that any lower temperature longevity benefits to be gained during my ownership have been far outweighed by the standard setup thus far.

That is assuming Porsche didn't fit lower temp thermostats and extra rads as standard to cars sold to warmer climates?

Opinions most welcome thumbsup
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Maxie
Yas Marina


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 8386
Location: London


PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoopsUK wrote:
I'm wondering, in my case if its worth doing this?


I would say almost certainly. One thing I have noticed is that standard M97s don't like standing in traffic where the ambient temperature is high - in the case of the UK, 25C+

~ Maxie
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HoopsUK
Newbie


Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 37
Location: Perth, Western Australia


PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maxie wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that standard M97s don't like standing in traffic where the ambient temperature is high - in the case of the UK, 25C+

~ Maxie


Thats the thing though, if it has spent almost its entire life pottering around in city traffic in temps of 30 to 45 deg with the fans blowing, then anything I do to it now is surely a bit pointless. If damaged, life shortened or worn, it has happened already and anything I do will just mitigate things from this point onward.
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Maxie
Yas Marina


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 8386
Location: London


PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoopsUK wrote:
Maxie wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that standard M97s don't like standing in traffic where the ambient temperature is high - in the case of the UK, 25C+

~ Maxie


Thats the thing though, if it has spent almost its entire life pottering around in city traffic in temps of 30 to 45 deg with the fans blowing, then anything I do to it now is surely a bit pointless. If damaged, life shortened or worn, it has happened already and anything I do will just mitigate things from this point onward.


That is also true.....I myself had the LTT fitted at 35k miles and the 3rd rad fitted at 39k miles. Maybe I am too late....maybe I have mitigated potential problems...I guess one will never know unless one carries out a bore inspection.

~ Maxie
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never too late to start eating healthily: same with LTT, and it's not like the cost much more than a pub lunch.
 
  
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HoopsUK
Newbie


Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 37
Location: Perth, Western Australia


PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maxie wrote:

That is also true.....I myself had the LTT fitted at 35k miles and the 3rd rad fitted at 39k miles. Maybe I am too late....maybe I have mitigated potential problems...I guess one will never know unless one carries out a bore inspection.
~ Maxie


Opinion much appreciated.

At the moment I'm tending towards doing it for the sake of a few quid and an hr or 2 under the car, which I will probably enjoy quite a bit. But at the same time, I've been enjoying the car immensely and don't want to get too caught up in the paranoia of various potential mechanical failures. At the end of the day, its an old 2nd hand car, It could blow up tomorrow or go on for another 250K miles no problems (more likely).

I'm happy with the searching, research and testing I did pre-purchase. I bought it to drive and enjoy, not mess around with too much.

Obviously this will all come crashing down if in fact I end up having the expensive problems others have experienced, but hey, thats life. Dont know

Incidentally, does anyone have some best guess stats at the failure rate vs no probs for the 996? Or the record highest mileage to date (without an engine rebuild)? I watched a great blog the other day about a chap in a 356 with over 1 million miles still on the original engine after i think only 1 rebuild around the 650K mark.
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

300,000 kms

TLC is mostly the differentiator.

Find one that has been serviced on the dot, full and correct oil, driven with mechanical sympathy and only with verve after a full warm up, and it is probably no more risky than a Golf.

Of course, the problem is knowing the car's history 8 owners down the line.
 
  
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HoopsUK
Newbie


Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 37
Location: Perth, Western Australia


PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT4 wrote:
300,000 kms

TLC is mostly the differentiator.

Find one that has been serviced on the dot, full and correct oil, driven with mechanical sympathy and only with verve after a full warm up, and it is probably no more risky than a Golf.

Of course, the problem is knowing the car's history 8 owners down the line.


300k, Not bad but as to be expected from Porsche I think, from a marque and type that has dominated endurance racing for so long, they must be pretty reliable.

In my mind, I ticked the known history box by:
    Buying from the only factory dealership in Perth

    Buying a car that was originally sold by said dealership

    Buying a car that has had every service carried out on time as per the manufacturers recommendations with the dealership that originally sold the vehicle

    The car had its yearly with the dealership the same week I purchased and it had no advisories


I will be returning it to the same dealership to sell when its time for the next owner to enjoy. I am the 4th owner from new and have the addresses of the previous 3.
It would be a little shocking if it had any major defects or sudden catastrophic failures.
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GT4
Nordschleife
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck on your new journey.

May it be a joyous one!
 
  
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Poker2009
Österreich


Joined: 09 Sep 2009
Posts: 936
Location: London


PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fitted the low temp thermostat end of May at 35k miles, and the 3rd rad in September at 37k miles. Admittedly I do a lot of town driving, and before was averaging about 220 miles from a full tank of Shell V-Power, and about 200 miles from Tesco Momentum - not sure why there is a difference?!

Since fitting the thermostat and the rad, I have noticed an increase in fuel consumption. About a 10% increase infact, averaging only about 180 miles out of a full tank.

Also, not sure if it is me, but the car feels a bit more sluggish, and seems to take forever to warm up.

Is this the compromise? With the car at 37k miles, could I have waited until about 60k before installing these?

To be honest I preferred the car how it was before! Although it would be a real PITA, leaving the 3rd rad in, and going back to the original thermostat has crossed my mind.. is this a really bad idea?
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Maxie
Yas Marina


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 8386
Location: London


PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poker2009 wrote:
I fitted the low temp thermostat end of May at 35k miles, and the 3rd rad in September at 37k miles. Admittedly I do a lot of town driving, and before was averaging about 220 miles from a full tank of Shell V-Power, and about 200 miles from Tesco Momentum - not sure why there is a difference?!

Earlier this year I also made the switch from T-99 to Shell V and noticed an increase in economy. I have stuck with Shell V since.

Poker2009 wrote:
Since fitting the thermostat and the rad, I have noticed an increase in fuel consumption. About a 10% increase infact, averaging only about 180 miles out of a full tank.

I tend to avoid town drives (my 4S is exclusively used for long runs) and since the 3rd rad + LTT I have been getting approx 320 miles per 67 litre tankful. I was touching 340 miles prior to fitment.

Poker2009 wrote:
Also, not sure if it is me, but the car feels a bit more sluggish, and seems to take forever to warm up.

With the extra weight of the 3rd radiator, car should not feel more sluggish - in my own case I don't feel any loss of power or torque. However, it still takes about 7 mins for the water to reach operating temp at 80C and about 15 mins for oil to reach operating temp which should be about 85C.

Poker2009 wrote:
Is this the compromise?

I guess for increased engine longevity it is. I have accepted it as so.

Poker2009 wrote:
To be honest I preferred the car how it was before! Although it would be a real PITA, leaving the 3rd rad in, and going back to the original thermostat has crossed my mind.. is this a really bad idea?

Engineers like Hartech have long advocated the use of an LTT which is the main reason I had one fitted in the first place. I don't think going back to the original thermo would be a good idea at all.

~ Maxie
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Poker2009
Österreich


Joined: 09 Sep 2009
Posts: 936
Location: London


PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a quote from a thread by GT4, I saved it some time ago in a word document (as I thought it was really informative, explained a lot), but cannot find the original thread:

Quote:
(Cold) Thick oil requires (and causes) higher pressures.

This is dependent on oil grade (XwY) and your engine wear/pump efficacy.

The oil pressure gauge is as follows:

Cold start: any revs = 5 bar

Operating temp: idle = 2 bar (or less, dependent on exact model, engine wear, oil grade used - 1.5 bar or extreme 0.8 bar when very hot and racing).

Operating temp: 3.5k+ rpm = 5 bar

Slightly worn engines will run slightly lower pressures for the same oil grade/temp.


If you have borescoring, worn engine or a rebuild (loss of tolerances), then it makes sense to change the oil to something thicker.

Every car should be run on ITS optimum grade.

You could run any car with thicker oil, but you could damage the pump, reduce flow (due to viscosity) and cause leaks due to higher pressures. You will also lose fuel economy and performance.

The last two (and the fact modern cars are very high tolerance) is why they run the thinnest oil possible.

As a car wears, you must compromise the last two for mechanical health.

There is no single age, nor mileage guide.

It is down to individual wear.

But fortunately, it is easy to measure the correct oil:

In "Xw-Y", raise the "X" until initial (cold) idle oil pressure is 5 bar.
In "Xw-Y", raise the "Y" until operating temp (hot) idle oil pressure is above 1.8-2 bar and 3.5k rpm is 5 bar.

If you have bore scoring, raise both until the oil puffs on start-up are less than once a week and less than 1 second.

Otherwise, leave as your last oil service intended.

There is a certain irony with thicker "protective" oil: it takes longer to initially get there (as high viscosity oils are slower oils).

If you want the fastest lubrication (and fast pump volumes to actuators like the cam chain tensioners and the tappets), you want the lowest cold viscosity oil you can get.


I think I can live with the increased fuel consumption, but the thicker oil caused by the Low Temp Thermostat concerns me a little, with regards to higher pressures causing extra strain on the pump and causing leaks.

As my car is fairly low mileage, before I did anything, the engine ran at 5 Bar cold, and about 2.5 Bar idle at normal operating temperature. And for the last four years of ownership, the car has been as solid as a rock, burning very little oil. I believe this would suggest an engine which still has high tolerances.

I have noticed recently, the car takes forever to reach normal operating temperature (I am not sure it even gets there in 15 minutes), the oil temperature will eventually get to 90, 95 and even 100, not much more than that. Also, even at what I believe to be normal operating temperature, around 95, the oil pressure is at about 4 Bar at idle.

I guess my question is, have I been a bit premature, and should still be running the thinnest oil possible, as the stats of my car suggest it still has "high tolerances"? Perhaps I am doing more harm than good at this stage in the engine's life?
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Original thread is here:

http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=84455

You should aim to tailor your hot (OP temp) idle oil pressure to 2+ bar.

ie 2, but erring on + if between grades.

This presumes you know of no other reason you should be running a higher viscosity oil (eg bore scoring already present etc).

Just to clarify, your car is definitely NOT a Gen2 nor any kind of Auto?
 
  
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Poker2009
Österreich


Joined: 09 Sep 2009
Posts: 936
Location: London


PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I have a 2005 Gen 1 C2S, with 37,000 miles. It is a manual.

Just to be clear, the car is currently running Mobil 1 0W40 and always has.

I installed a low temp thermostat and a centre rad a couple of months ago, and have noticed the changes I have mentioned since the install.

Before the modifications, I had 5 Bar pressure at cold, about 2.5 Bar idle at normal operating temperature. Hardly burnt any oil over the last four years of ownership.

My question is have I been a little premature installing the low temp thermostat, as this will effectively thicken the oil, and I am seeing more like 4 bar idle normal operating temperature? I don't want to cause unnecessary stress on the pump, or cause leaks due to higher pressures, if the engine is still in a "high tolerance" stage?
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GT4
Nordschleife
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4 bar is VERY high operating temp idle pressure.

Even 2.5 is too high.

I would get the sensor checked.
 
  
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Poker2009
Österreich


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Posts: 936
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks i'll get it checked. Was looking at it today a bit more closely, and it seems to be jumping around a bit, and giving inconsistent readings.
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GT4
Nordschleife
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't want to get into an accusation of perhaps those readings not actually being at op temp, but basically, 0w40 oil pressure at 80°C+ coolant/100°C oil can't be 4 bar.
 
  
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Poker2009
Österreich


Joined: 09 Sep 2009
Posts: 936
Location: London


PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually spoke to my mechanic earlier today (before reading your post) and he said it could be a faulty oil pressure sender, and he said its a quick fix to rule that out.

Appreciate the advice and will let you know the outcome..
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GT4
Nordschleife
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, sometimes I do try to think of other people's feelings and be diplomatic Grin
 
  
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