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colt
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 272
Location: wiltshire


PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject: timing slip Reply with quote

on the 3.6/3.8 996/997 litre variocam f2 engines, the inlet cam is locked to the variocam pulley by only one very tight bolt. It is a known issue whereby they can slip marginally and quite often the valves do not hit, i suspect because the ecu sees the timing target and actual values as different and closes the valves up (variocam f2 has variable lift and timing) saving the valves. Hopefully this will prove to be the case.
regarding over rev ranges the data specifies only the last operating hour the last over rev in that band occurred ,it cannot record the mileage.

And the correct 8 hour information may well put you out of the window of opportunity??
Lets see the evidence of the figures before delivery????????

Christian..............
 
  
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazhart/Colt - Great info thanks.

Bazhart - My only issue is wouldn't i notice a mis-shift especially one registering in range 4? I imagine it would be quiet noticeable... If this is not always the case then i can accept this may of happened.

Colt - I really hope this is the case, it would seem that the service manage is of a similar opinion.

Another question is; How does the timing slip cause an issue many miles after the initial over rev was made? Whether its 2 operating hours ~70miles or 8 operating hours ~280 miles.... would it not be noticeable straight away?

Im in @ the dealership tomorrow morning so hopefully they will have had enough time to pull all of the info off the car.
 
  
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FLETCHER
Nürburgring


Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 463



PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck , hope it works out ok for you.
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997 TURBO
RANGE ROVER
 
  
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Ant Blain
Kyalami


Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 1754
Location: Manchester

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AeroAnt wrote:
My only issue is wouldn't i notice a mis-shift especially one registering in range 4? I imagine it would be quiet noticeable... If this is not always the case then i can accept this may of happened.

I would say categorically 'yes'; surely you'd notice because after you slotted the wrong gear, as soon as you began lifting your foot off the clutch the revs (and accompanying engine noise) would shoot upwards, the car would maybe lurch forwards as the engine wouldn't be able to spin at the required speed if for example you'd gone from the top-of-third into second instead of fourth - I would say you'd definitely notice. This would all be in a fraction of a second, and hopefully within a second or so you'd have the nous to get your foot back on the clutch to disengage the engine, but you would definitely know about it I'd say?

Here's what it would potentially look / sound like;


Open Youtube Page





AeroAnt wrote:
Im in @ the dealership tomorrow morning so hopefully they will have had enough time to pull all of the info off the car.

Good luck!

Thumb
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update;

There is some good news and some strange news Dont know

Firstly this OPC has been fantastic, really taking the time to explain all of the questions i had to me and suggesting possible outcomes. The first OPC seemed more interested, intialling in charging me money.

After they received the car they ran their own checks. There are over revs and they have 'definatly' occured since my ownership.... I guess i am going to have to accept that now although when and why i did not notice is beyond me.

Since my ownership approx 8.2 engine hours ago the car registered
Rev Range 3 39 ignitions
Rev Range 4 7 Ingnitions
Surprised
In accepting that it must have been me... i also think i am officially the fastest shifter in the west Hand Thumb

After explaing the information that they had found that matches what the first OPC found..... i was then told one of the major thing that may be causing the issue is the fact that 1 catalytic converter has burned through!!!!! This could potentially be the cause of the failed leak down??. The new catalytic converter has been ordered and will be installed and then the engine re-tested. The Service manager has told me that they intend to test and find out the cause of this. I cannot remember eactly the possible causes but i do remember him mentioning failed coil packs/sparks could lead to fuel being in the convetor and then being burned up causing the failure?

How could this have been missed?

With the new information i did a quick search which returned this, remarkably similar to my issues?;

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-forum/696246-996-misfire-and-failing-catalytic-converter.html

Atleast this somewhat more positive news.
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7467
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can anybody confirm what rev ranges apply to this car, are these correct?

997 Carrera
Range 1 | >7300 and <7500
Range 2 | >7500 and <7700
Range 3 | >7700 and <7900
Range 4 | >7900 and <8400
Range 5 | >8400 and <9500
Range 6 | 9500+

If they are, assuming an average speed of 7800rpm in rev range three, that means 13rpm in range 3 (39 ignition events / 3 per rpm), or 0.3seconds in range 3, and about 20ms in range 4. Given that you must have passed through range 3 twice to go to and from range 4 that is a total time of approximately 0.3s in total for the time spent above 7700rpm. Not very long at all.

MC
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9293
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strange.

However.

I am sure all of this will be resolved at no charge to you.

If you went to cort and it was put to a judge that you were given a car with a faulty catalytic coverter, this could of caused all sorts of faulty readings. You have only just bought the car. Any Court would find in your favour.

It sounds like the OPC are putting things right though.

Keep us posted.

Take it easy in that Golf.
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Ant Blain
Kyalami


Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 1754
Location: Manchester

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
Can anybody confirm what rev ranges apply to this car, are these correct?

997 Carrera
Range 1 | >7300 and <7500
Range 2 | >7500 and <7700
Range 3 | >7700 and <7900
Range 4 | >7900 and <8400
Range 5 | >8400 and <9500
Range 6 | 9500+


One more thought; has the car been re-mapped maybe? Question

Some maps raise the rev limiter, so it could be possible that if the previous limit was 7500rpm* then obviously anything from range 2 upwards may be a worry because you'd have had to rev it past the limiter to hit that engine speed, but if the limiter has been raised to 8000rpm* then you could have in theory just taken it to the limiter and registered ranges 3 and 4, which may explain why you are at a loss as to how it's happened? Just a thought?



*note I've used these rpm figures as examples, I don't know where a 997 3.8 engine redlines / hits the limiter as standard.
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Gollom122
Suzuka


Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 1144
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the OPC do pick up the bill then that is a good start, however how is this going to effect the OP's resale value of the car. My understanding is that OPC's will not part ex this car now due to the over revving. Should compensation be sought if the failure was not caused by driver error but as a result of the OPC missing the fault or is this just one of those things that could have happened any time?

Might be time to consider the long term implications.
 
  
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steve baker
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 398
Location: Essex, UK

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AeroAnt wrote:
Update;

Since my ownership approx 8.2 engine hours ago the car registered
Rev Range 3 39 ignitions
Rev Range 4 7 Ingnitions
Surprised
In accepting that it must have been me... i also think i am officially the fastest shifter in the west Hand Thumb



Would appear the OP is accecpting he is responsible for over-rev situation within his ownership ?? The damaged Cat, if that's what the problem turns out to be has coincided with the over-rev being found by the dealer. Is it not feasible the two issues aren't related?
 
  
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Gibbo205
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 27 Dec 2010
Posts: 332



PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there


Someone far more intelligent then me might know this, but due to mathematically reasons is it not impossible to have less than 10 ignitions in a rev range?

As such 8 ignitions in range 4 is simply a glitch and not an over-rev, it has to be more than 10 otherwise its simply not possible.

Maybe GT4/Baz can chime in?
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7467
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is possible to have a very small number if that is the highest rev range reached. See my previous post.

MC
 
  
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stuttgartmetal
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 2429
Location: Caterham. Surrey


PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a load of cr p these engines are if the crank can't spin less than twice without mullering them.
You think for all that money the cars cost Porsche could over engineer them like they did with the old air cooled ones.
 
  
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just had a chance to watch that video. That sounds BAD... i havent even heard anything remotly similar.

I only accept it must have happened within my ownership as the pre-delivery report shows no over revs in range 3 or 4 and although the time recorded for the over revs is very close to my pick up time... it was definatly during my ownership.


I personally think the 2 issues are seperate. Time will tell.

From the reading i have done the failure of the cat is sometimes related to failed Coil packs.... failed coil packs can be related to age or often getting wet. I assume my coilpacks have been on there since new and i know it was raining the whole time during my 2 days of ownership. Just unfortunate that the over-revs are there.... which is what seems to be causing the issues. Along side the fact that the orginal OPC failed to notice a damged/failed cat.

MisterCorn - those ranges are correct.
Ant Blain - No idea about the remap... would this not be something that would show up on the pre purchase/sale checks?
 
  
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Gollom122
Suzuka


Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 1144
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AeroAnt wrote:


I only accept it must have happened within my ownership as the pre-delivery report shows no over revs in range 3 or 4 and although the time recorded for the over revs is very close to my pick up time... it was definatly during my ownership.



What's the date of the pre delivery report and how does this compare to the collection date? It may be possible that a trade in was agreed on the basis of the report then the previous owner went out for a final fling before chicking the keys in for his new car.... just a thought as I am sure that you would have known it if you had ragged the car.
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7467
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the car has particularly beed 'ragged' from the engine speeds and the total duration of the range 3 and range 4 incursions it looks to me like a wrong downshift, where the driver realised what was happened and dipped the clutch straight away. The data shows a TOTAL of 0.3s in range 3, just clipping the lower limit of range 4. This isn't a full on money shift where the driver dumps the clutch and waits for the engine to slow down as the car decelerates.

MC
 
  
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bad news....

Apparently after the install of the new cat' they found that the vario cam sensor had failed, which was replaced. But the engine is still not running correctly, they said they have found metal debris in the oil and now need to strip down the engine to find out what has happened.

I don't know but can an over rev cause the failure of the cam-sensor and the cat?

As they are still waiting on a response for the warranty claim they have advised me on the potential cost of this. SCARY.

Although in limbo with Porsche GB. I'm still hopeful they can get a warranty claim through or at least some good-will towards the cost of whatever the issue is. Not really sure on what grounds they would grant/refuse good-will?

Really am lost for what to say. Ran the car 2 days apparently miss-shifted and now potentially huge costs. Its a shame as it seemed i got a good deal on the car and now it could potentially cost me £2k-£8k more than anything similar.
Sad

Should have more info by end of Monday/Tuesday
 
  
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Ekona
Suzuka


Joined: 06 Jan 2011
Posts: 1225
Location: Essex


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to say it, but at this point I'd bite the bullet and take the car to Hartech/other specialist of your choice. Unless you can get a guarantee of any goodwill (and tbh there's no reason they should give you any, without trying to sound harsh) then the final bill from an OPC is going to be MUCH higher than one from an indy.

Think of it this way: You sell someone something, and they come back a couple of days later and say it's broken. You have enough proof that the breakage was entirely down to them. Would you contribute towards fixing it? I'm not sure I would.


Again, I'm really not trying to get at you with any of this, you have my immense sympathies and I'd be gutted, I'm just trying to give a realistic picture here for you to get your car back as cheaply as possible.
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Ex-997.2 C2S PDK
 
  
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit of a catch 22 for me at this stage.

Appreciate what you are saying and do agree with your position on Porsche UK's probable response, but the at the moment i still hold out hope for some goodwill. It would seem the OPC is on my side and i hope that they will push the fact that it was only 7 recorded ignitions in the 'unacceptable' rev range. I think buying OPC, relatively low milage + allowing the OPC to do the work will be looked at positively in terms of good-will.

If i don't let them do the strip down there is no chance of goodwill/warranty. Currently with the recorded range 4's it does make the warranty/goodwill claim difficult but they haven't had an opportunity to prove/disprove that this was the cause. If for e.g. the reason for debris in the oil is due to scored bores surely this couldn't be caused by a 7 ignition over rev or any over rev for that matter? Therefore i would assume they/I would have a better case for a claim. If it turns out to be a bent/damaged valve or damage to the timing chain then the engine is already out and its only really going to cost me in parts at that point.

Currently i have a rental provided FOC and they have quoted considerably less to do the engine strip down than the first OPC and probably less than it would cost at an indy. So providing it is something relatively minor e.g. a valve needs replacing it will work out a lot cheaper.
 
  
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually thinking back to the conversation. I don't recall them saying it was not running correctly just that their was a lot of debris in the oil. Anyway hope tomorrow brings good news.
 
  
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