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colt
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 272
Location: wiltshire


PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: proof Reply with quote

While your there, ask to see the hard copy of the pre purchase preparation sheet showing operating hours, over-rev ranges and date ,time etc??? ,and the one they produced when they appraised it before accepting it as a part exchange??
Christian.........
 
  
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice. Will defiantly ask for all the info. Hopefully Porsche will get back to them in the morning so i know where i stand.

I would be very surprised if they don't honour the warranty. Especially with the minimal amount of time 'i supposedly' spent in range 4.

Thinking about it... is it even possible to only have 7 ignitions in range 4? Assuming an average of 8000rpm surely it would have to register more as it would go though 7900-8000-7900 (possibly higher) before it stops registering in range 4. Which would have to be more than 7 ignitions?

The OPC i bought it from have asked to be updated at each stage by the repairing OPC. Hopefully if Porsche don't want to cover it in the warranty, the original OPC will help out with cost.
 
  
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Ekona
Suzuka


Joined: 06 Jan 2011
Posts: 1225
Location: Essex


PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is kinda my argument. I'd want to see both pre and post warranty over revs in full, just to see the difference. If they're right then they're right, not a lot you can do, but if they're not then that's an awful lot of money you could be arguing over.
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8526
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't suppose you have a tracker fitted to get any data from? It wouldn't prove an over rev either way but would maybe highlight the driving style at the time if its set to show this.

I doesn't sound good if there is compression loss, if the timing has slipped I would of expected bent valves to cause the loss of compression.

Good luck with the investigation and fight for the warranty repairs.
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Ant Blain
Kyalami


Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 1754
Location: Manchester

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies for clogging your thread up earlier with all the 'rev range - is it possible' stuff, I appreciate it doesn't help with your current dilemma (although hopefully it's still an interesting debate)! Embarassed


Like others have advised I would ask to see all the printouts in writing so you know exactly what you're dealing with. It's really worrying that you know you haven't revved the engine to over 8,000rpm yet an OPC apparently have a print-out from the car's ECU saying it has been revved to over 8,000 as recently as 2 hours ago. Get all the data you can in writing then you can start trying to make sense of it, because to my mind there's only really a few possible truths here;

- the ECU print out is wrong
- the OPC are lying about the ECU data (i.e. the data doesn't actually say it's seen the far side of 8,000rpm)
- you are lying / mistaken and you have actually revved it to 8000+ rpm
- someone else has over-revved the car (either before or during your ownership)


Note I only included the third option for completeness, don't take it as an attack on your honesty! Thumb

Hopefuly once you've got the data you can start to piece together which one of these circumstances is what's happened in your case, but either way I hope that a) the problem with your car isn't serious and b) either the warranty or supplying OPC cover all costs. Keep us updated! Thumb
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver - unfortunately no tracker fitted.
I would assume that also. If its slipped and any of the valve are open at the incorrect time then the piston would surely impact them? Would they not be able to check for the sound of the pistons hitting the valves?

They just said, they suspect slipped timing and in the first instance they would retime and then test it. I guess thats the cheapest if its at cost to me. Then if there was further problems they would possibly have to strip the engine. In reality i think if the warranty provider suspect engine damage they will have to do an oil check etc before anything else.

Would valve/piston damage only be noticeable above a certain RPM? It start, idles and drives fine up to 4200rpm-ish perfectly.

Ant Blain -

Definatly an interesting debate and triggered extensive 'over-rev' research for me! Laughing

No offence taken. Tbh i would rather it was knowingly me, so i could have peace of mind that i made a mistake and it won't happen again. I would also happily accept that i had mistakenly hit the limiter on the way up too hard and for too long.. but according to Porsche and sources online it doesn't seem like that will cause a range 4 over-rev. Its just difficult to accept that i could unknowingly miss-shift that hard. Then to hear its 7 ignitions at that range, could i even dip the clutch/change gear that quickly. If i can who needs PDK/DCT Laughing

The only car i have ever miss shifted was and old Pug 205 GTI with the wrong wiring loom.... and i knew about it when i did it.

I can't see how the could get the print out wrong or miss read it. But IF what he says is true that its only registered 7 ignitions in that range that too me seems the only questionable piece of information.

I'm sure Porsche UK/Germany/warranty provider will check the data and i'll probably get a yay/nay tomorrow.

Even if porsche agree to cover under warranty i will still be getting all of the data i can, just for my own mind. Also to share on here.

Last edited by AeroAnt on Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Ant Blain
Kyalami


Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 1754
Location: Manchester

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AeroAnt wrote:
I would also happily accept that i had mistakenly hit the limiter on the way up too hard and for too long

Hitting the limiter won't cause the engine to rev past 8,000rpm. I've hit my limiter a few times in the 3 years I've had my 996, hitting it every now and again does no damage at all. To get the sort of readings you've got the limiter would need to have failed and allowed you to just keep revving and revving - unlikely!! And you would have had to notice it and stop revving within 7 revolutions / ignitions - even more unlikely!! Grin



AeroAnt wrote:
I can't see how they could get the print out wrong or miss read it.

What I was 'suggesting' was that maybe the readout says nothing of the sort and the OPC want to make some money by doing the compression tests (either by charging you or charging back to Porsche directly). Kind of like when a garage tells you your brake pads are worn and need changing when in actual fact there's nothing wrong with them. Perish the thought...! Whistling

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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

What I was 'suggesting' was that maybe the readout says nothing of the sort and the OPC want to make some money by doing the compression tests (either by charging you or charging back to Porsche directly). Kind of like when a garage tells you your brake pads are worn and need changing when in actual fact there's nothing wrong with them. Perish the thought...! Whistling

Thumb


Surprised They would never Very Happy Laughing . I see your point.

Time will tell, i did find it a little strange that they did not have the exact numbers available to them when i called nor could they find them. Its hard waiting it out.

After some quick research it seems that it is possible for timing to jump approx. 1-2 teeth without causing damage, allowing enough of a leak to show up on a leak-down as compression loss. This simply means re-timing and away i go. But generally it would seem anymore than a 2 tooth jump will mean valve and/or piston damage.

As i'm only working half day tomorrow i might make a trip to the OPC and get some hard evidence. At least then i can see the results for the leak-down and the over revs.[/quote]
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8526
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AeroAnt wrote:
Would they not be able to check for the sound of the pistons hitting the valves?


It depends as they may of been hit at high revs and are at the point where they are not touching anymore without revving it a lot higher. Mine didn't make a metallic sound at all but I could only turn it over not run it. (i had a chain snap)

AeroAnt wrote:
They just said, they suspect slipped timing and in the first instance they would retime and then test it. I guess thats the cheapest if its at cost to me. Then if there was further problems they would possibly have to strip the engine. In reality i think if the warranty provider suspect engine damage they will have to do an oil check etc before anything else.


There a couple of other things that have come to mind, one is that a chain tensioner may of failed loosening the chain and letting it slip on one bank, there is also an issue where the chain guide can break between the IMS and crank which could still let is run but not well.

AeroAnt wrote:
Would valve/piston damage only be noticeable above a certain RPM? It start, idles and driver up to 4200rpm-ish perfectly.


Very similar to mine when I'd rebuild it and found out it was a bad connection but putting your compression into the mix sounds like there is a problem somewhere within.
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OPC i purchased the car from have given me a call and explained it a lot more clearly.

Porsche are not willing to pay out, at least until the timing has been done.

They have said a rev range 4 was registered @ 8 running hours ago (not 2 like the current OPC stated) @ 35MPH average that would make it approx. 260+ miles ago. I know i have done mainly motorway miles so this puts it to the day that i picked it up. I collected the car at 4:30 in the afternoon and drove straight home in heavy rain using only motorways.

Because they have quoted approx. £2800 for the timing to be done, the OPC i bought it from are going to have the car towed back to them to 1. run their own checks and 2. See what they can do regarding cost (very positive talk about absorbing costs)

The service manager there has been very helpful and is willing to pull off the reports and explain them to me. He also seems confident that in his experience the slipped timing is the cause for the loss of compression rather than any internal damage. Obviously he won't know for sure until they get the car there.

I am VERY interested in the data now.
Although it has taken much longer than i would have liked, it went in on Thursday 27th, and having it towed back to the original OPC is going to add at least another day to my wait, i feel a lot more comfortable with it going back to where i bought i fromt. Its been at porsche for twice as long as its been with me since owning it . Surprised
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9293
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck.

Very strange.

Pop Corn
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks

It's hard holding out for the car as i feel like just paying for the work to get my car back but i know thats not the right thing to do at the moment. MUST BE PATIENT

The operating hours/milage is 1 doubt i have in my mind. Also if the over rev was the cause of the timing slip surely it would have slipped at that exact moment, under the excess load causing me to have running issues for the remaining 8 running hours not the last 15mins of driving? Unless the chain has the ability to remember there was an over rev and then jump off randomly and punish me 2 days later? Laughing

Hoping the OPC can give me more info. I am collecting another loan car from them on Thursday morning so they will have had it in for half a day by then.
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9293
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet they give you one with PDK, with your reputation!

Smile
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AeroAnt
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 141



PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol i did think that!!!

Its a golf. So its will probably be the 1.6Tdi DSG just to make sure! Very Happy

Oh but it would also seem there are tiptronics and PDK cars with registered over revs!! think the highest auto over rev i have read about was Range 5 Surprised
 
  
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steve baker
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 398
Location: Essex, UK

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In your very first post you state that you have only driven approx 260 miles since owning the car. OPC states over rev occurred 8 engine hours ago or approx 260 + miles!!! There will be a record of the mileage at handover somewhere on the paperwork. Seems to me if you have in fact done less than 260 miles you will have a case to argue. Question
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8526
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting, and so the plot thickens.
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Red993C4
Magny-Cours


Joined: 09 Dec 2010
Posts: 2723
Location: S. Wales


PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve baker wrote:
In your very first post you state that you have only driven approx 260 miles since owning the car. OPC states over rev occurred 8 engine hours ago or approx 260 + miles!!! There will be a record of the mileage at handover somewhere on the paperwork. Seems to me if you have in fact done less than 260 miles you will have a case to argue. Question


Don't want to read the whole thread again, but I thought I'd read "2 hours ago". Dont know
 
  
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steve baker
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 398
Location: Essex, UK

2007 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AeroAnt wrote:
The OPC i purchased the car from have given me a call and explained it a lot more clearly.

Porsche are not willing to pay out, at least until the timing has been done.

They have said a rev range 4 was registered @ 8 running hours ago (not 2 like the current OPC stated) @ 35MPH average that would make it approx. 260+ miles ago. I know i have done mainly motorway miles so this puts it to the day that i picked it up. I collected the car at 4:30 in the afternoon and drove straight home in heavy rain using only motorways.


Surprised
 
  
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Red993C4
Magny-Cours


Joined: 09 Dec 2010
Posts: 2723
Location: S. Wales


PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve baker wrote:
AeroAnt wrote:
The OPC i purchased the car from have given me a call and explained it a lot more clearly.

Porsche are not willing to pay out, at least until the timing has been done.

They have said a rev range 4 was registered @ 8 running hours ago (not 2 like the current OPC stated) @ 35MPH average that would make it approx. 260+ miles ago. I know i have done mainly motorway miles so this puts it to the day that i picked it up. I collected the car at 4:30 in the afternoon and drove straight home in heavy rain using only motorways.


Surprised


Ah, OK. Thumb
In that case, the first thing that needs doing is to clear up the discrepancy between the statements by the two OPCs involved.
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 1000
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry no time today to read it all - so hope this is relevant and helpful. If not please ignore.

(1) You cannot over rev a manual car unless the over rev limiter is faulty or you change down too soon. Driving up to the limiter cannot over rev it beyond what it is set at however many times you do it - that is what it is there for.

(2) If you admit hitting the limiter twice within your first drive - you must have been driving it hard and quickly - no problem with that except the gearchange gate is very close together and easy - if you are not used to it - to slip into 2nd instead of 4th - changing down.

(3) We know of a case in which the same model had that done and over revved accordingly - but it drove OK afterwards although the valves had just kissed the heads but not bent.

Good luck


Baz
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