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ras62
Hockenheim


Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 641
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure a 993 engine would be cost effective tbh, 3-4k? for an unknown condition engine plus the fitting? Of no noticeable difference to the present owner and most potential new buyers would run a country mile. I know the differences between the engines and the advances of the 993 are not always advances at all. Cam timing anyone?
 
  
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Booo
Silverstone


Joined: 17 Feb 2011
Posts: 148



PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 993 engine is far from being a direct replacement in the 964, labour costs alone would be much much higher if a 993 engine was used.
 
  
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Chris W
Approved Trader


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 7845
Location: North, South, East & West

2000 Porsche Boxster 986

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with the works, hope it's not too painful!
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9283
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris W wrote:
Good luck with the works, hope it's not too painful!


Thanks.

I'll know more later today.

One option I won't be taking though is fitting a 993 engine.

It will be a heavy-hearted decision if it even has to be replacement 964 engine. I want to keep the car as original as possible, with all modifications being my chosen improvements, not forced upon me due to repairs.

I will just add though that I am keeping an open mind.

I expect that as it has so many faults that there will be a performance benefit when I get it back, sorted.
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Hummer
Imola


Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 758
Location: Gravel trap


PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once it's all been done you'll be left with a nice fresh engine.
Deep unbounded joy & driving pleasure - never mind the cost which will be forgotten in time thumbsup
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Gazc2
Kyalami


Joined: 08 Nov 2003
Posts: 1942
Location: Perthshire


PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well put Frank, just suggesting another option as you say budget wise some of the rebuild numbers depending on options can be eyewatering plenty people went down the 993 route some on a reasonable budget if your decent with a spanner. Mechanic
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9283
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, went to see my engine in intensive care.

Its now dis-assembled.

The "noisy tappet" was the bolt that holds one of the rocker shafts in had broken (it had been welded previously too!).

The shaft had worked its way sideways and the rocker started to be at an angle as the shaft had moved. As to whether or not it has caused the rocker shaft casing to be oval or not we cannot tell at this time, until the head is stripped. Fingers crossed.

The angled rocker has damaged the camshaft.

Shims on the end of the camshaft were missing. The cam chain sprocket has marks were it has been moving, and there is a pin that was on its last legs.

It has had one new (or replacement, probably secondhand) barrel in the past. This barrel is in OK condition, but the other 5 have hatching marks and need replacing, so its 6 new (or good used) barrels and pistons.

I need a new (or used) camshaft.

Some of the nuts and washers in the engine are non standard and really bodged. some studs replaced, others not, wrong nuts fitted. It grieves me that someone has done a top end rebuild and not bothered to do it right. I will be going through the receipts for the last 10 years to see who might've done this, but as the car is 21 years old it may have been done a long time ago.

The bearing shells for the oil pump are worn through to the copper, but the indy says these can wear through at about 60,000 miles anyway.

The conrods look in good order, so new bolts, shells, polish crankshaft, and strip down the oil pump to check it but I am told these are normally pretty good so it should be OK.

The good news is that everything is fixable. I have decided against 3.8 barrels and pistons, as because my car was in such poor condition, just making it into a properly built engine will be a dramatic improvement anyway.

Timing chains look in excellend condition. I'm tempted to replace them anyway. I will wait for pricing. Any thoughts? Obviously its easy to say change them, but where do you draw the line?

Tim-ware is knackered, so will all be replaced. It has been welded, siliconed and had holes cut into it previously.

I will have more idea of costs when everything is priced up.

Thanks to SteveJC I now have a decat pipe to go with the existing G-pipe, and the primary silencer isn't standard either. My indy says he doesn't know what it is, but its a sports pipe of some description.

I reckon I will have to got through all this cars history records and find out what has really happened to it. However its going to have a better quality of life from now on.
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7145
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear that so much is required on the top end. At least you know that when this job is finished you shouldn't have to touch the engine again for another 10 years.

MC
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9283
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
Sorry to hear that so much is required on the top end. At least you know that when this job is finished you shouldn't have to touch the engine again for another 10 years.

MC


It'd better bloody well last longer than that!

It's being rebuilt to a higher spec than Porsche did when it was new, and as is only likely to be doing a maximum of 5,000 miles per year, and probably less, then I am expecting not to have to do it again in my lifetime.

(and I am expecting to live to 100)
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Vic
Montreal


Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 608
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! What a nightmare!!

Good luck with the rebuild - as you say it will be better than new Thumb
 
  
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Porsche964FP
Donuts For Windows


Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92



PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeterS wrote:

Timing chains look in excellend condition. I'm tempted to replace them anyway. I will wait for pricing. Any thoughts? Obviously its easy to say change them, but where do you draw the line?


From my understanding it's common place to replace chains, ramps and tensioners at this point in an engines life. Although of course if your builder says they're all fine...
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9283
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ramps (sliders?) and tensioners are all being replaced. Chains he says is "its one of them, they look perfect, but you can never tell"

Tonight I will be ploughing through my huge folder of receipts and service history to see what's been done.

Im pretty sure Ill be changing them, but will wait for his costings and advice.
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Porsche964FP
Donuts For Windows


Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92



PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeterS wrote:
Ramps (sliders?) and tensioners are all being replaced. Chains he says is "its one of them, they look perfect, but you can never tell"

Tonight I will be ploughing through my huge folder of receipts and service history to see what's been done.

Im pretty sure Ill be changing them, but will wait for his costings and advice.


Just had a thought - if you need cams also... I have a set...
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9283
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Frank. I may be kissing you!

Thumb
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911UK
Porsche Community
Porsche Community


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 10140
Location: 911UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeterS wrote:
OK, went to see my engine in intensive care.

Its now dis-assembled.

The "noisy tappet" was the bolt that holds one of the rocker shafts in had broken (it had been welded previously too!).

The shaft had worked its way sideways and the rocker started to be at an angle as the shaft had moved. As to whether or not it has caused the rocker shaft casing to be oval or not we cannot tell at this time, until the head is stripped. Fingers crossed.

The angled rocker has damaged the camshaft.

Shims on the end of the camshaft were missing. The cam chain sprocket has marks were it has been moving, and there is a pin that was on its last legs.

It has had one new (or replacement, probably secondhand) barrel in the past. This barrel is in OK condition, but the other 5 have hatching marks and need replacing, so its 6 new (or good used) barrels and pistons.

I need a new (or used) camshaft.

Some of the nuts and washers in the engine are non standard and really bodged. some studs replaced, others not, wrong nuts fitted. It grieves me that someone has done a top end rebuild and not bothered to do it right. I will be going through the receipts for the last 10 years to see who might've done this, but as the car is 21 years old it may have been done a long time ago.

The bearing shells for the oil pump are worn through to the copper, but the indy says these can wear through at about 60,000 miles anyway.

The conrods look in good order, so new bolts, shells, polish crankshaft, and strip down the oil pump to check it but I am told these are normally pretty good so it should be OK.

The good news is that everything is fixable. I have decided against 3.8 barrels and pistons, as because my car was in such poor condition, just making it into a properly built engine will be a dramatic improvement anyway.

Timing chains look in excellend condition. I'm tempted to replace them anyway. I will wait for pricing. Any thoughts? Obviously its easy to say change them, but where do you draw the line?

Tim-ware is knackered, so will all be replaced. It has been welded, siliconed and had holes cut into it previously.

I will have more idea of costs when everything is priced up.

Thanks to SteveJC I now have a decat pipe to go with the existing G-pipe, and the primary silencer isn't standard either. My indy says he doesn't know what it is, but its a sports pipe of some description.

I reckon I will have to got through all this cars history records and find out what has really happened to it. However its going to have a better quality of life from now on.


Sounds almost as much as my 964 RSR project car and dont ask Surprised

get a solid and reliable 3.6 Thumb
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ras62
Hockenheim


Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 641
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like a real goon has been there before. Regarding the Cylinder barrels, what is actually wrong with them? Hatching marks are normal but piston scoring is not. Normally they need to be measured to see if they are in spec or not. Your indy should be able to find a good replacement set for £6-800.
 
  
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Hawks
Newbie


Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Nottingham, England


PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter you have my symapthies. My rebuild will hopefully be quite mundane by comparison.
Its shocking that someone would have treated your engine in that way.
It reinforces the point that word-of-mouth recommendation is so important to help choose who you let loose on your car. It's good to know that forums like this will always steer you in the right direction.
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9283
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The previous owner told me it had extensive service history.

All that He has said is tue, and I have a folder full of stuff.

He spent £,000s on it himself, including a bill for over £2000 from Nine Excellence on 25/5/12 for a service including the tappets.

Looking through the receipts it looks like is the culprit for the shoddy internal work, in 2007 is The Classic & Sports Car Workshop, Cackle Street, Brede.

There is an invoice from them to dismantle to crankcase level and replace seals etc. dated 15/8/07 and the bill was only £1171 inc VAT.

There is also a bill for £3700 from Specialist Cars of Malton in 2011, and whilst a lot of that is external stuff, springs etc, it is also service, rocker gaskets and the like.

So it has been to what we would all expect to be the right places, which just goes to show that most of the owners have been trying to do the right thing with it.



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Last edited by PeterS on Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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chimp911
Zolder


Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 5911


2011 Porsche 997 Turbo S

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem is no matter what the invoice says, unless you actually see the work that has been done youself how can you be certain it isn't bodged?

You're a braver man than me Pete for taking this project on, but the world will be a better place once you've finished putting the old girl right again... Thumb
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9283
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like the garage has covered themselves as well.

He quite clearly says that within 4 weeks someone needs to check that he has used the right nuts and bolts!
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