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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7317
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kev M wrote:
Thanks for the detailed response Baz Thumb

I looked a Cayman S two year ago which was 3.4 if i recall which had been rebuilt with just 34k on the clock due to bore damage. The engine built used Omega forged pistons which i was reliably told was the best option to negate this problem with coatings. I decided not to buy due to the engine history.



Genuinely curious... why did you not want to buy a car with that engine history, given that the bore damage had been put right and potentially future proofed by the new pistons?

Would it have made a difference if the rebuild had been done by a well-regarded specialist?
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Kev M
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Joined: 12 Feb 2017
Posts: 48
Location: Northumberland


PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think the key word was "potentially" having not had a Porsche before and the engine repaired i decided to walk away from any Porsche. I was looking at 997 but the Cayman looked great and the price was unreal.

At that time i was in between rally cars but then decided to buy one more Smile which ive had for just over 2 years but ive had enough so time to retire in to a Porsche Smile
 
  
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C4Silver
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 273



PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread resurrection,

Having recently purchased a 997.1 I’m trying to glean as much info as possible to try and understand Bore Scoring.

From Baz’s extremely well constructed posts from first hand experience with his hands on, eyes on approach working on repairing and racing I’m inclined to take what he has discovered and take it as written that his advice should be adhered to, a bit like visiting a Dr..... often they can diagnose a symptom by just looking at some one, a 5 min conversation almost confirms the diagnosis whilst a check over then looks to putting things right !

Any way I digress, I have a few questions though not wanting to challenge anything posted by any one who has contributed to this thread and I don’t think any one has mentioned this ?

Q: is there any link between Engine Oil, the longevity of it’s use I mean, whilst enthusiasts often replace engine oil religiously service regimes adhere to a 20.000 mile schedule or 2 years, whilst I know modern oils are man made and able to clean and lubricate for many thousands of miles or years does the breakdown in structure or it’s ability to suspend particles increase wear ?

Also, what low temp thermostat are people using ? What application is from ? And more importantly how difficult / easy is it to replace.

Thanks
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17138
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes - oil degrafes over useage, heat cycles and time. The heat cycles are probably the biggest contributor and the only one that isn't measured (unlike mileage and time). So for the cost of oil changes vs. rebuild is it worth chancing?
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C4Silver
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 273



PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely not, I’m still yet to be convinced that these extended service intervals weren’t all part of the manufacturers trying to reduce the cost to us “the motorist” read BUYER whilst maximising sales through paying monthly over 3 years for a vehicle that you never actually get to own ?


Looking at the first two years in essence all you have to do is put is put fuel and screen wash in it ? When faced with a service at the two year point it’s often about that time people get rid, creating churn and re sale whilst ultimately damaging the engine with oil that’s been swilling round for 2 years, great if you only ever buy new but not so good if you are buying used, even with a full service history it’s no guarantee that it’s been well looked after.
 
  
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me&my997
Monza


Joined: 23 Mar 2019
Posts: 150
Location: Lancashire


PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C4Silver wrote:
Definitely not, I’m still yet to be convinced that these extended service intervals weren’t all part of the manufacturers trying to reduce the cost to us “the motorist” read BUYER whilst maximising sales through paying monthly over 3 years for a vehicle that you never actually get to own ?


Looking at the first two years in essence all you have to do is put is put fuel and screen wash in it ? When faced with a service at the two year point it’s often about that time people get rid, creating churn and re sale whilst ultimately damaging the engine with oil that’s been swilling round for 2 years, great if you only ever buy new but not so good if you are buying used, even with a full service history it’s no guarantee that it’s been well looked after.


Agreed the whole 15k / 20k 2 yr oil services on majority of cars is a false economy longterm but as you point out whoever is in the new car for 2-3 yrs doesn't give a toss about longevity of components .
The longer service regimes most likely thought up to appeal to the corporate buyers buying multiple company cars , for them servicing costs would reflect in margins so they would no doubt love a 30k - 3 yr service pack Smile
My criteria for my car search ( not just Porsche) is always to see the service record looking for ones that have had oil changes in between or at least well before the miles indicated the need .
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6443
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hand modern oils are designed for it. I used to work for Castrol, then BP when they took over, sorry merged Grin
I’m no chemist but I know that was a major area of development for many years.
Do you really think the manufacturers would risk law suits in the USA if it was found that the oils could not support the service intervals ?
The major consideration is ensuring that the correct grade of oil is used and allowed to get to the correct operating temperature correctly (although that tolerance has also much improved over the years).
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17138
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reckon I can ruin any oil in any car in the space of a week. You can't say that an oil will last a certain distance or period without knowing how the cars driven.

Wonder what the frequency for oil changes are on an F1 car - once a season? Scratch Chin Floor

Surely for someone to win a court case on oil longevity it'd have to be over a very higher % of users encountering the problem.
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
I reckon I can ruin any oil in any car in the space of a week. You can't say that an oil will last a certain distance or period without knowing how the cars driven.

Wonder what the frequency for oil changes are on an F1 car - once a season? Scratch Chin Floor

Surely for someone to win a court case on oil longevity it'd have to be over a very higher % of users encountering the problem.


F1 oil (in fact I was more familiar with WRC oils as the blending facility I managed ran the support team, yes the oil companies have full time support teams, or used to in my day) is very specialist with totally different operating criteria. I think you would find it hard to ruin an OEM oil operating within design parameters in a week Wink believe me the testing labs try to do just that.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17138
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonttt wrote:
I think you would find it hard to ruin an OEM oil operating within design parameters in a week Wink believe me the testing labs try to do just that.


Who said anything about design parameters? Dont know


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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grin
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C4Silver
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 273



PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonttt wrote:
Hand modern oils are designed for it. I used to work for Castrol, then BP when they took over, sorry merged Grin
I’m no chemist but I know that was a major area of development for many years.
Do you really think the manufacturers would risk law suits in the USA if it was found that the oils could not support the service intervals ?
The major consideration is ensuring that the correct grade of oil is used and allowed to get to the correct operating temperature correctly (although that tolerance has also much improved over the years).


You are aware of the VW Emissions Scandal that has rocked the motoring world aren’t you ? The manufacturers didn’t think twice about risking Law Suits with that...... Why ? Because they thought they weren’t getting caught !

Im not saying that the Oils cannot support the service intervals, or that the major Oil manufacturers are indeed risking law suits..... I’m just suggesting that the degradation and break down in the oil over a period of two years culminating in 20K miles cannot be good for the engines internals ?

In my own “Version” of why service intervals have been increased it has little to do with longevity of the internals of the engine and length of increased ownership potential and lays more with the board of directors and ensuring their investors get a good return on their investment.

Getting us to pay more up front still means the car requires a service at 2 years regardless of who’s paying for it ? I just think that it’s a bit of a false economy.
 
  
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Newbe
Newbie


Joined: 21 Apr 2019
Posts: 47



PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If my engine has been rebuilt by hartech, all 6 cylinders, does this still apply?

Please say no🤣
 
  
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C4Silver
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 273



PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There’s no way Baz would advocate that service regime ! 😳

If I’d got one of his engine build’s I’d be dropping oil at 2.5k !
There’s no doubt your running the LTT as well, I shall be doing that mid soon.....

Shall I mention the 3rd central rad 😂
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8501
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C4Silver wrote:
In my own “Version” of why service intervals have been increased it has little to do with longevity of the internals of the engine and length of increased ownership potential and lays more with the board of directors and ensuring their investors get a good return on their investment.


As far as I am aware the two year oil change interval came about for environmental reasons and the amount of oil being wasted each year. Now that modern oils can last a lot longer it makes financial and environmental sense.
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C4Silver
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 273



PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really ? I’d agree with financial sense, it makes more sense from the manufacturing perspective not the consumers. Your paying for the oils in the vehicle at point of sale with a new vehicle and then some, the environmental cost is being paid by us as well as the board room tax ? as for environmental? It has to go back thro the system and re engineered, but as Synthetic oils are man made it’s not like it’s being extracted out of the ground.

This isn’t something that has been done for any other reason than to make owning a new vehicle appear cheaper over the first few years of ownership, PCP’s were initially sold as being maintenance free for the first two years, with the service regime set at an extended period you had essentially had the first and second years service built into the vehicle that you just bought ! Unwitting consumers lapped up these apparent benefits and once on the PCP merry go round that was it you were hooked, I don’t expect you to believe that people sit in meetings inventing these hypotheses that are passed at board room level creating huge bonuses for the financial team..... which incidentally are paid for when you buy the car ?
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8501
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is still based on natural products drawn from the Earth though.

Quote:
Synthetic oil is a lubricant consisting of chemical compounds that are artificially made. Synthetic lubricants can be manufactured using chemically modified petroleum components rather than whole crude oil, but can also be synthesized from other raw materials. The base material, however, is still overwhelmingly crude oil that is distilled and then modified physically and chemically. The actual synthesis process and composition of additives is generally a commercial trade secret and will vary among producers

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Newbe
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Joined: 21 Apr 2019
Posts: 47



PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

😂

Last edited by Newbe on Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Newbe
Newbie


Joined: 21 Apr 2019
Posts: 47



PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if I've missed something with this thread but the oil conversation is written like all cars have engine problems or scoring. I'm not a car mechanic but how many other cars have had the same issue as the 997?

Putting the Porsche to one side is there evidence the long oil changes shorten or damage engines in other cars,? (I don't know the answer to this)

Many years ago cars would do well to last 100k at more frequent changes. Now they can last a whole lot longer, even with the long oil changes. I would suggest the fault is with Porsche design, not some corporate conspiracy over oil.🤣😂

I know it stands to reason more oil changes would increase the life of an engine but we cannot generalize based upon a design fault in the Porsche engine.

What can you do to prevent the scoring in a 997??? You will never know. Just get a Hartech rebuild a be done with it.

Just my thoughts
 
  
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C4Silver
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 273



PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
It is still based on natural products drawn from the Earth
[/quote]

I knew I should have googled that 🤣
I’m felt so sure I’d seen that on how things are made...... 💡
 
  
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