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no f in water
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like the decision taken by the Porsche board to transfer control from the engineers to the bean counters may come back to bite them after all........ Hand

Whilst my 993 is far from perfect (despite eye watering bills at every service interval Sad ) I am sure I have read that production times for the 996 were 10% of those for the 993.
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Ekona
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Porsche are no worse than any other manufacturer who have had issues with engine design, and in some cases they're significantly better.

My own personal experience is with the 1ZZ Toyota engines which had problems with the pre-cats in the mk3 MR2 application. Toyota never admitted the issue despite a wealth of knowledge on it amongst various specialist forums across the world, even though there was an easy fix. They did offer replacement engines or contributions if you'd had naim dealer servicing though... Is this starting to sound quite similar yet?!

The cost of replacing an engine in the MR2 was roughly similar percentage-wise to replacing one in a 911, so it's a fair comparison IMHO. Manufacturers spend millions on engine R&D, and 99% of the time they get it right. Occasionally they'll make a mistake, but given that Porsche have been pretty generous (in my eyes) with their reparations to people who have been unfortunate to suffer issues, I think they should be commended rather than slated.


Granted that's coming from someone who has never suffered these issues, and a big part of me buying a gen2 car was to avoid any of this, and I do have a genuine sympathy for anyone who has suffered in the way the OP has. Every car has it's own foibles, some are minor, some not so much: As with everything in life, luck plays a huge part.
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puldruk
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I had some minor work done at my local OPC, asked them how many engine failures they have. The service manager was quite open, about 10-12 a year, of which 2-3 are 911s.
I wonder if anyone in the trade would have an idea of how many engines a Ferrari/Lotus/BMW M/AMG dealer need to change in a year. Unless anyone frequents those forums Smile
 
  
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c4srmsims
Monza


Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 156


2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other point to consider is the that of everyday reality vs forum obsession.

The majority of Porsche owners just don't know. What is particularly bizarre from my point of view (as someone who has observed various forums with varying degrees of incredulity) is that those that have such passion for the brand/car/ethos/whatever you want to call it, have the greatest propensity the run Porsche down and get into petty arguments with fellow enthusiasts. And not everything I have read falls into the category of healthy debate!

Some folks are just plain nasty - PH is worse than here. I daren't post on there for fear that some smart-arse with a grudge will call me something nasty because his mudflap fell of once and it wasn't replaced by a bikini-clad lovely within 60 seconds of the dreadful event.

Where do you go to find a place where Porsche cars, parts, service, dealers, distributors and the such are consistently run down and pilloried? Why, a Porsche forum of course.

I'm sure I'm going to get the 'healthy debate' argument now, but seriously - how much attention do you think you get from those that really matter?

911uk, like similar sites/forums/groups, is in a minority. Let's face it, even Official Porsche Clubs have little or no influence, and are humoured by the Brand, which is far more interested in how many Cayennes and Panameras it can sell to the Chinese. They are not concerned that you are no longer able to obtain the correct Mobil 1 sticker for your 1996 993 (I think it's great that the cars generate this level of passion/attention to detail).

...and before you shoot me down and go on the offensive, I'm a fan. I've loved these things for as long as I can remember, and I go to the garage for a quiet moment just to look at mine (car).

Yes, RMS/IMS/Bore failure really kills the ownership experience, but there are so many things in life that we could really do without too, and we just get on with it.

It rains. Porsches can break down. The sun always shines on TV.

Carry on.
 
  
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airbus
Silverstone


Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 107



PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

c4srmsims, thanks for the sanity check. You are right, but the PH and Porsche forums just reflect the fact that humanity will like to share a tale of woe slightly more often than they are motivated to share a tale of joy. In between the amusing spats, there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained. Yesterday it took me ten internet minutes to locate the likely problem with my VW Polo runabout and I avoided all the hassle of going near a garage. This resource just wasn't even dream t about 15 years ago, all you had was monthly enthusiast magazines and clubs, although with less knowledge in circulation, maybe owners worried less, who knows! On this thread alone there are a dozen or more tips on Porsche ownership well worth knowing.
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jfb1977
Monza


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stokie1 wrote:
all good stuff guys and food for thought - i'm less confident than i was and may have to reconsider long term ownership which i was planning with my current 6 year old model

any update on the engine jfb??


I'm STILL waiting for Byfleet to take the thing apart. I was told that they should be starting this yesterday. Ironically, they only have a limited number of engine stands and all were in use due to the number of repairs / replacements they have on the books at the moment, so they've been unable to get to mine.

I know these guys are busy, but it's damn frustrating. I want my car back and it's been with them 10 days and they haven't even taken it to bits yet so we can assign blame.

Am trying to remain calm and understanding but I want to get things moving... nooo
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airbus
Silverstone


Joined: 15 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

out of interest, did Byfleet expand on what sort of engine rebuilds they were doing?
Also, judging from other threads on this type of problem, its going to tax your patience for some time to come.
All the best.
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jfb1977
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

airbus wrote:
out of interest, did Byfleet expand on what sort of engine rebuilds they were doing?


Not really. I know that one was a 996 and I think it was a replacement rather than a rebuild I think. Didn't ask about what else they were doing.
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airbus
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jfb1977 wrote:
airbus wrote:
out of interest, did Byfleet expand on what sort of engine rebuilds they were doing?


Not really. I know that one was a 996 and I think it was a replacement rather than a rebuild I think. Didn't ask about what else they were doing.


Hopefully another OPC Warranty claim for a replacement engine. I wonder if Porsche cost the warranty at 2k as that is the rough cost to manufacture a 996 engine? Surprised
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The Beast
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="c4srmsims"]The other point to consider is the that of everyday reality vs forum obsession.

The majority of Porsche owners just don't know. What is particularly bizarre from my point of view (as someone who has observed various forums with varying degrees of incredulity) is that those that have such passion for the brand/car/ethos/whatever you want to call it, have the greatest propensity the run Porsche down and get into petty arguments with fellow enthusiasts. And not everything I have read falls into the category of healthy debate!

Some folks are just plain nasty - PH is worse than here. I daren't post on there for fear that some smart-arse with a grudge will call me something nasty because his mudflap fell of once and it wasn't replaced by a bikini-clad lovely within 60 seconds of the dreadful event.

Where do you go to find a place where Porsche cars, parts, service, dealers, distributors and the such are consistently run down and pilloried? Why, a Porsche forum of course.

I'm sure I'm going to get the 'healthy debate' argument now, but seriously - how much attention do you think you get from those that really matter?

911uk, like similar sites/forums/groups, is in a minority. Let's face it, even Official Porsche Clubs have little or no influence, and are humoured by the Brand, which is far more interested in how many Cayennes and Panameras it can sell to the Chinese. They are not concerned that you are no longer able to obtain the correct Mobil 1 sticker for your 1996 993 (I think it's great that the cars generate this level of passion/attention to detail).

...and before you shoot me down and go on the offensive, I'm a fan. I've loved these things for as long as I can remember, and I go to the garage for a quiet moment just to look at mine (car).

Yes, RMS/IMS/Bore failure really kills the ownership experience, but there are so many things in life that we could really do without too, and we just get on with it.

It rains. Porsches can break down. The sun always shines on TV.


===

C4srmsims if it was not all that important then why have you just spent 3 pages going on about it?

Seriously, there are some people here who do not take these things as well as you claim you would. There are a good few on this forum whose cars are being mended, but who do not wish to discuss it in public. For each and every person dealing with this will come difficult decisions about extra financial outlay. It is their hard earned money, and this massive expenditure is difficult to get the head around.

It is all very well being cavaliar about others people's money but I am not sure you would feel the same if it was your eight thousand pound notes laid out of your own pocket on someone else's table.
 
  
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Ocean Blue
Kyalami


Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 1788



PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beast,
Your quite correct in the numbers game with cars, that's the nature of the beast. It's a commercial venture though I have read Porsche UK may take an active interest in the older cars which sounds good to me.
As for the 993 sticker, well that's me and my mate OCD Laughing your partially right, I now know from ongoing dialogue that Mobil produced the stickers but I'll not hijack the thread. I'd just love to see JFB's dream restored and some respect given to the situation by all concerned which for me has not happened as yet. The bloke has done nothing wrong, dream car, check. Dealer reputation, Check. Warranty Check. Disaster, well where is everyone?
 
  
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The Beast
Suzuka


Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Posts: 1159



PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ocean Blue wrote:
Beast,
Your quite correct in the numbers game with cars, that's the nature of the beast. It's a commercial venture though I have read Porsche UK may take an active interest in the older cars which sounds good to me.
As for the 993 sticker, well that's me and my mate OCD Laughing your partially right, I now know from ongoing dialogue that Mobil produced the stickers but I'll not hijack the thread. I'd just love to see JFB's dream restored and some respect given to the situation by all concerned which for me has not happened as yet. The bloke has done nothing wrong, dream car, check. Dealer reputation, Check. Warranty Check. Disaster, well where is everyone?


--

Understood, thanks for clarifying (although I missed the bit about the 993 sticker Dont know )

I am most interested in your point about Porsche UK being most interested in older cars: I didn't know this, and it sounds good - could you elaborate on this?
 
  
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jfb1977
Monza


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 247



PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ocean Blue wrote:
I'd just love to see JFB's dream restored and some respect given to the situation by all concerned which for me has not happened as yet. The bloke has done nothing wrong, dream car, check. Dealer reputation, Check. Warranty Check. Disaster, well where is everyone?


If this was Facebook I'd "like" this comment! Thumb

I'm fairly philosophical about all this. I watched that Red Nose Day programme the other night about the slums in South Africa (I'm no tree hugger / hippy) but there's nothing like a reality check to give you some perspective.

"Oh no...my Porsche is broken...sob sob....I'll have to drive my BMW 7 series (which makes me look like a pud landlord)...sob sob..." Sad

All that said, I'm a massive petrolhead, I LOVE(D) driving that car and it honestly felt like a privilege to own one after years of lusting! And now that dream is shattered.

There's a good chance that it won't cost me personally very much (if anything) to get the car back on the road, but with a rebuilt engine (even by Porsche) I don't think I'll ever really trust the car again, and I assume the resale value will take a hammering too. I just know I'll cringe slightly every time I push my right foot down - and that just kills the point of owning a 911.

I tried to explain to Porsche GB that I change my cars every 12 months and having got the 911 I'd decided (and proudly announced it to my family and friends) that I would always have a 911 on the drive from now on, I loved it that much. I'm only 34, so that means a lot of 911s to come! I guess PCGB don't care about one consumer who's had a couple of Boxsters and now is driving a 6 year old 997.

In fact I know they don't. Before they wrote to me and said they "weren't able" to help me they called Porsche Byfleet and asked "what kind of customer" I was. Byfleet told them they knew my previous Boxster and I'd always been loyal to them - but I'm guessing that because I'd never bought a brand new car (or cars) through an OPC, I'm irrelevant. Guaranteed that had I bought 3 new cars in the last 5 years from them, I would have got a different response. But then they didn't have to help me, so I guess I can't grumble too much.

They have however missed an opportunity to hook a customer at "entry level" and turn me into a truly loyal brand advocate for life who would always remember the extra effort they made to help when I was just starting my 911 ownership story.

I have to say I did take exception to the letter from Porsche GB that said they were "unable" to help. I politely pointed out that in 2009 Porsche announced record profits of £51 billion, a 400% increase on the previous year, so unless there was a massive financial crisis going on behind the scenes at Porsche that I was unaware of I would suggest that they have "chosen" not to help me, rather than being "unable".

Anyway - I'm rambling. Embarassed

I'm now in this horrible limbo waiting for confirmation of my repair bill and then I have to start the laborious process of workling out who's going to pay. And I'm also torn between two conflicting ideas -

1) Get car fixed, sell it immediately, buy a Range Rover and never touch a Porsche again or...

2) Embrace the marque I love and give them one more shot - buy a Gen2 PDK from an OPC and hide the costs from my wife!

I'm full aware that all of us that are lucky enough to own these cars are priveleged, but it's the weirdest feeling having one of the best things in your life become one of the worst and being powerless to do much about it.

And here endeth today's lesson. Apolgies for "War and Peace" and but it feels good to vent! frustrated
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Last edited by jfb1977 on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An excellent post jfb.

Well done for taking the time to articulate your feelings at what must be a very frustrating time.

I'm the loving owner of a now 9 year old 911 and know that I'll be quite lucky if I don't experience some sort of major engine issue in my tenure.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I've been around long enough to understand that ANY mass production car manufacturer will only consider buyers of their new or nearly new cars as particularly important.

The fact that some future new car buyers may be put off the brand in their formative car owning years by bad experiences of old examples doesn't seem to matter at all.

Unfortunately in this ever increasing disposable society in which we live I can understand their point. There's enough people out there aspiring to owning new or nearly new Porsches that, if kept happy, will repeat-buy. They just don't need to consider the feelings of those that buy 'old' versions of their merchandise second, third, fourth or fifth or ............. hand.

I really hope that you get your own car situation sorted to your satisfaction. If you do I'm quietly confident that you'll remain a 911 owner for the forseeable future.

Good luck Thumb
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Goose
Watkins Glen


Joined: 07 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jfb1977 wrote:
....it's the weirdest feeling having one of the best things in your life become one of the worst and being powerless to do much about it.


Most marriages can be a bit like this at times.

Stick with it, the reward will be there in the end. Thumb
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Maxie
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Joined: 11 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jfb1977 wrote:
2) Embrace the marque I love and give them one more shot - buy a Gen2 PDK from an OPC and hide the costs from my wife!


Thanks for keeeping us updated jfb1977 Thumb Personally, if funds allowed I would go for the above choice. Having heard about the engines in yours, The Beast's and the new guy who just bought a 996 Anniversary all in the space of a week, it has seriously put the willies into me as I have pretty much the same engine also. If I'm fortunate enough to have a 911 next time around it will be a Gen 2 997, Gen 1 Turbo 997 or perhaps even a 991.

Just my 2p.

~ Maxie
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Dudley911
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:30 am    Post subject: Do the replacement engines have the same design fault? Reply with quote

I purchased a C2S (Speed Yellow) 2004 18 mths ago which had a replacement engine in 2008. I had previously bought a new 2004 C2S in Artic Silver (having been persuaded to change colour from SY) and owned it for 3 years before going to the dark side with an AMG.

Just love the 911, and did not mind buying one on 2nd engine. I just got it checked over by OPD before buying. Still it would be nice to know that my current car has an engine with the potential fault fixed.
 
  
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tim993
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
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2016 Porsche Boxster 981

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i really hope you get the car fixed and at not too much cost to you.

if you are put off the newer cars, there's a wealth of opportunity for fun in the air-cooled arena Cool

ok, our cars have thier own 'idiosyncrasies' too, but we just get these things sorted, move on and enjoy the cars. Thankfully engine failure seems to be quite uncommon, but with rot around the screens and creeping into the rear chassis legs, it could put some folk off!

Thankfully all our cars are eminently fixable and their are a great bunch of indies (and OPCs) out there to help. This most excellent forum for is also a great comforter for all the support and advice you could ever want.

please stick with Porsche, in the longer run you won't regret it. Thumb

tim
 
  
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airbus
Silverstone


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God, don't buy a Range Rover, at least with Porsches its only the engines that give up the ghost. Cool
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c4srmsims
Monza


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2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Beast wrote:
C4srmsims if it was not all that important then why have you just spent 3 pages going on about it?

Seriously, there are some people here who do not take these things as well as you claim you would. There are a good few on this forum whose cars are being mended, but who do not wish to discuss it in public. For each and every person dealing with this will come difficult decisions about extra financial outlay. It is their hard earned money, and this massive expenditure is difficult to get the head around.

It is all very well being cavaliar about others people's money but I am not sure you would feel the same if it was your eight thousand pound notes laid out of your own pocket on someone else's table.


I can understand and sympathise with your situation - not quite sure that I've spent 3 pages going on about it!

Let me be clear. I'm not claiming that I will take it well - I will be very disappointed if my engine fails, but I have done my research, taken a view on potential costs, and gone down the route of an OPC purchase with a warranty that I will be extending to cover any risk.

It's a personal decision, and one that was taken having done as much research as I could to make the right decision for me and my financial situation.

I don't want to be getting my head around massive expenditure of my money, so I have acted accordingly. I won't face massive expenditure that I can't afford - isn't that the responsible thing to do? I took a long hard look at the potential costs of running a 997 before I bought one. I'm not being cavalier about other people's money - I'm being very careful about my own, and I've taken steps and made certain decisions so that I wont be laying out eight thousand pounds from my own pocket on someone elses table without having made a carefully considered judgement about it in the first place.

I'm not looking for an argument, and I certainly don't want to be taken to task over warranty payments vs potential likelihood of failure - that's been discussed at length before, and for me it came down to the affordability of paying for the insurance vs carrying the risk myself.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation, and I hope that it works out as well as possible for you.
 
  
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