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jfb1977
Monza


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 247



PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy cr&p!

I've just had the call giving me the estimates for repair.

So...what exactly has failed is as yet unidentified (or at least they didn't tell me on the call), but the engine is full of metal (or swarf) and not in good shape at all, the cylinders are scored and it's all a big mess internally.

Upshot is that whilst it could be repaired, you wouldn't want to repair it and the cost would be prohibitive at over £18,000!!!

A replacement engine from Porsche can be fitted for more like £13k, which would come with a 2 year warranty - so there's really only one way to go.

So....now the warranty company have asked for electronic print outs etc in order to try and wriggle out of paying anything (standard procedure) and then I'm left asking the supplying dealer to put his hand in his pocket for the difference.

Have sent an email to them explaining the situation and my position (i.e. that I've taken advice and should they decide not to make up the difference I'll be going down the SOGA route and coming after them for every penny).

So...horrendously expensive.....I wasn't really expecting anything else, but somehow it's seems worse once it's real!

Now it's a waiting game on both warranty company (who will doubtless want to send an engineer to inspect) and the dealer to respond.

If the warranty company stump up their £5k and the dealer the rest, I'll be relatively happy with a new engine fitted and warranted (for 2 years) by Porsche. If either decide not to play ball then it's going to be a long drawn out legal battle I'm afraid! It's one I'd be confident of winning, but it would be time consuming and (to coin a phrase) a massive ball ache!

nooo
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
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Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least you making progress and hopefully you get it sorted soon
 
  
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peterg1965
Monza


Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 174
Location: Lancashire


PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought,

You may still have to pay out some money yourself due to 'betterment'. Ie, when the new engine is fitted you will be in a better position than you were before the engine went pop, brand new engine and two years Pork warranty. I think the best outcome you could expect would be £5K from warranty company, £5K from Trader and £3K from yourself.
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jfb1977
Monza


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 247



PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peterg1965 wrote:
Just a thought,

You may still have to pay out some money yourself due to 'betterment'. Ie, when the new engine is fitted you will be in a better position than you were before the engine went pop, brand new engine and two years Pork warranty. I think the best outcome you could expect would be £5K from warranty company, £5K from Trader and £3K from yourself.


I don't agree with this.

If that was the case then I'll just take the dealer through the courts for a 100% refund of the car purchase and start again...or if betterment was an issue I could be pig headed and just ask them to repair the existing engine for £18k, surely?!

Anyway...we'll see!
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Stuart
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Joined: 16 Sep 2007
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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who has supplied those numbers as they seem very very high?

Second opinion required me thinks...


Dont know
 
  
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Zingari
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 13123
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope you get it sorted out.

Now I'm know expert but you've had ownership of the car for approx 3 months, the engine lets go and warranty wont cover all the work.

So what's to stop the dealer bailing out by blaming the malfucntion on the driver/mode of driving Dont know

Is there any way you can establish the state of the engine at the point of sale or identify that the engine was defective due to a part malfunctioning? In which case would Porsche bear some responsibility or would this go down the same route as the 996 RMS/IMS issues?
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Ian_UK1
Monza


Joined: 23 Jan 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Manchester, UK


PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuart wrote:
Who has supplied those numbers as they seem very very high?

Second opinion required me thinks...


Dont know


This ^^^^

Did you ever speak to Hartech? Every post I've seen from them would seem to suggest a cost of more like £8000 for a fully refurbed motor, not £18000.

Also have a proper, close, informed look at what Hartech are doing. I'd be VERY much happier with a Hartech engine in a 997.1 than with a 'new' engine from Porsche (they're actually remanufactured). Porsche never sorted the issues the M97 engine occasionally suffers from, whereas all Hartech engines (as I understand it) can be supplied with the cylinder bores stabilised, the IMS bearing modified so it stands a real chance of lasting the whole life of the engine and the cooling system modified to lessen the danger of localised hot spots in the engine (that can cause the pistons to 'pick-up' on the bore walls and cause scoring/damage).

The fact your motor is currently full of swarf is irrelevant - a full strip down and rebuild at a proper engineers such as Hartech would include cleaning-out all the small drillings and oilways so there's no danger of anything being left inside.

Lastly, if you could get a better-than-new engine for 'sensible' money, you will have a much better chance of everything being paid-out and an amicable, rather than combative, solution being reached quickly. Car-on-road is, after all, the most important thing. We buy these cars to drive them, not to fight legal battles over them if possible. A Porsche that can't be driven is worse than useless.

Ian
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Andyuk911
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Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 92



PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nail on head Ian .. worship
 
  
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c4srmsims
Monza


Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 156


2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has there ever been any data compating the outputs of a Hartech rebuilt engine (without mods to improve power) vs new/replacement or even the original Porsche engine of similar mileage?

One of my concerns would that be whatever replacement engine I went for was optimised in terms of not just future reliability but also power too.

I suppose that the saving in cost achieved bygoing from OPC to Hartech would pay for some power-boosting upgrades, but I'm curious as to what the 'standard' engines from each would achieve.
 
  
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Ian_UK1
Monza


Joined: 23 Jan 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Manchester, UK


PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

c4srmsims wrote:
Has there ever been any data compating the outputs of a Hartech rebuilt engine (without mods to improve power) vs new/replacement or even the original Porsche engine of similar mileage?

One of my concerns would that be whatever replacement engine I went for was optimised in terms of not just future reliability but also power too.

I suppose that the saving in cost achieved bygoing from OPC to Hartech would pay for some power-boosting upgrades, but I'm curious as to what the 'standard' engines from each would achieve.


In theory there should be no difference. Both have the same displacement, both will be using stock heads and the same valve timing with the same ignition and fuelling maps. With new pistons and/or rings in perfectly round bores, both should have the same compression too. Bearings will be new and run at the same tolerance.

The difference will come as the engines start to age. One of the issues with the M96/7 engines is the bores going out of round due to the materials used and the 'open-deck' block design. The Hartech engine will retain round bores whilst the standard Porsche engine's bores will typically end-up slightly oval. This reduces effective compression pressure and will lower power/torque output with time.

Ian
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c4srmsims
Monza


Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 156


2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian_UK1 wrote:
c4srmsims wrote:
Has there ever been any data compating the outputs of a Hartech rebuilt engine (without mods to improve power) vs new/replacement or even the original Porsche engine of similar mileage?

One of my concerns would that be whatever replacement engine I went for was optimised in terms of not just future reliability but also power too.

I suppose that the saving in cost achieved bygoing from OPC to Hartech would pay for some power-boosting upgrades, but I'm curious as to what the 'standard' engines from each would achieve.


In theory there should be no difference. Both have the same displacement, both will be using stock heads and the same valve timing with the same ignition and fuelling maps. With new pistons and/or rings in perfectly round bores, both should have the same compression too. Bearings will be new and run at the same tolerance.

The difference will come as the engines start to age. One of the issues with the M96/7 engines is the bores going out of round due to the materials used and the 'open-deck' block design. The Hartech engine will retain round bores whilst the standard Porsche engine's bores will typically end-up slightly oval. This reduces effective compression pressure and will lower power/torque output with time.

Ian


So that's the theory - any data to support this? Nothing on the Hartech website, and no claims there. I've had engines rebuilt before, and there was a big difference to 'factory'.
 
  
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jfb1977
Monza


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 247



PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update.

So the supplying dealer offered to fit a new (replacement) engine from Porsche (2 year warranty) at no cost to me (also comes with all new ancillaries apparently too), but he wanted to use his guys to do it and not Byfleet as a lot of the cost was coming from their labour costs.

After talking to a few "right honourable" mates, I was going to accept with a couple of caveats -

1) They stand by their work on the car for 12 months
2) They allow me to send in an independent inspector to investigate their work before I collected the car
3) They meet me half way on the cost of stripping the engine at Byfleet (which I expect to be circa £1,000)

I would've been ok with this as for around £500 I would've had a new engine with the work inspected and signed off as well as covered for a year, plus the engine itself is warrantied by Porsche for 2 years.

Not a bad result.

However, I heard from Byfleet last week. Seems the warranty company engineer who went in is going to reject the claim. Looking at the engine he feels the damage on the cylinders (scoring) is old. Therefore I was sold a car with an already damaged engine. So they're talking about not paying anything and I'm back at the dealer's door. Wall

I think that I might still be ok as the warranty company and the dealer go back a long way and they sell lots of policies through them - so I doubt the warranty company will leave the dealer completely high and dry and lose a good customer.

I think if between them I can get them to honour the dealer's offer (i.e. new engine fitted, inspected and work guaranteed for 12 months, engine for 24) then I'll take it. Dont know

I'll be back on the road with a new engine.

Another option is to tell the dealer I'm rejecting the car under the Sale of Goods Act and go through the courts to get all of my money back. However, I love the car, that could take months, it's not 100% certain the judge would rule in my favour (although I expect he / she would).

And yet another option is to talk to Santander (who finance part of the car) as they have an interest in their assest being on the road in working order. They would get quite heavy handed with the dealer.

I'm so undecided as to the best way to go. One day I just want the car back with a new engine, the next I think I never want to see it again. Confused

And by the way - quick question - given that my engine probably had some damage (however minor / major) when I bought it - is it likely that it wasn't running at 100%? I'd love to get the car back even better (and faster!) than before! puh
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ResB
Estoril


Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 3708
Location: North Yorkshire

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Court should always be the last resort. Good luck. Thumb
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slate
Trainee


Joined: 16 Feb 2011
Posts: 95



PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can , Reject it and buy another car with an opc warranty.
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 16202
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can get the dealer/warranty company to provide a new engine I reckon that's the best result you can realistically expect.

If the dealer/warranty company offer this I doubt there's is any chance the courts would find for you being able to reject the car - especially as 3 months had elapsed after you buying it. What mileage did you do in that 3 months?

Furthermore the cost of you providing the evidence to back up any claim of the engine already being damaged would be high, let alone the time it would take, and I doubt that you'd get that money back even if you won your case.

Good luck.
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Ocean Blue
Kyalami


Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 1788



PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Ian Uk1 is spot on as Hartech do seem top of the tree from an engineering aspect. However, if it went to court then you have to remember the dealer has offered to make good the defect, and on this basis T8996C4 is quite correct. The dealer is going to meet his obligation which is going to make things difficult for you in court. If it was me I'd take the dealers offer. If your still unhappy pay for some professional advice.

Good luck and lets know.
OB
 
  
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elliot_holder
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 414
Location: Guildford


PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject: . Reply with quote

Sounds like the dealer has offered a pretty good deal to me.

By replacing the engine and ancillaries, they seem to be going further than just making good - which would have been to fix/rebuild your broken engine.

Hope you get it fixed and back on the road soon.
 
  
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LOJO
Österreich


Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 958
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always wonder when an engine destructs at say 3,000 rpm with all this metal flying around how an engineer can look into the bores and say yes but some of these scratches are old.....

If I was paying it would be Hartech all the way, no doubt. If the dealer is paying then whatever he offers, if it has a 2 year warranty.

When he has fitted the new engine, I would run it straight up to Hartech for some work, see this link, section 5 is the part that applies to you :

[/url]http://www.hartech.org/buyers.html[url]

LOJO
 
  
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jfb1977
Monza


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 247



PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So...finally some good news!

The car is having a new engine fitted at no cost to me! The warranty company and the dealer have sorted it out between themselves.

The engine will be ordered from Porsche HQ in Germany and the work will be carried out by the supplying dealer's mechanics and then checked over by the guys at JZ Machtech for a clean bill of health and sign off that everything has been done properly.

I have spoken in some detail to both JZM and Hartech and they both said the same thing - having a new engine from Porsche with new ancillaries (which is what I'm getting) with a 24 months Porsche warranty is the absolute best outcome I could wish for. Regardless of how expert any rebuild it is, it doesn't compare to a brand new unit. I was worried I'd get a recon engine from Porsche - turns out it'll be a brand spanking new one!

As such, the engine Porsche will supply will be the 2011 version of the Gen 1 3.8 (355 BHP) unit which has numerous improvements on the original 2004 units and their well known weak points (IMS / main bearing seals etc). thumbsup

Steve (Technical Director at JZM) has confirmed that fitting an engine is actually pretty simple and as long as they use new mounting bolts and fit a new clutch (if required) at the same time, there's very little to worry about. This has really put my mind at ease to be honest.

As such, I'm pretty pleased. The car should be back on the road in about 2 weeks. Thumb

The tough part will be taking it easy as I run it in....which I assume I'll have to do... Dont know
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The Beast
Suzuka


Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Posts: 1159



PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JFB I am more than delighted for you. Well done mate! You stuck with it and the outcome is great.

I am getting the full engine rebuild at Hartech, and the dealer is covering most of it. It seems we are both closer to Porschecarnirvana than before our failures: it almost makes all the hassle worth it...

thumbsup
 
  
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