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anthonyg
Newbie


Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 7



PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:16 am    Post subject: My engine has been replaced - am I out the woods? Reply with quote

I had my engine replaced on my 2005 C2S in 2007, does anyone know if I am out the woods with my replacement engine or could it potentially happen again (I am in the same place as most of you on if I should do the warranty or not!!)
Cheers
 
  
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baxster
Monza


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 232



PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was part of a number of people who orchestrated firstly a poll, then a draft letter for all contributors to send off when many B7 RS4s came down with the dreaded DRC pandemic. We constructed a reasonable letter to Audi saying that this is what went wrong and when, enclosed a copy of a forum poll and asked Audi for an extented warranty. The result was that Audi extended the warranty on all cars that had reported the issue to 5 years from the date of registration. Audi responded to everyone who wrote in and no threats were made regarding contacting watchdog or papers.
Rocket science it aint but posting page after page of do we dont we aint going to get people a free engine when it goes pop. Sorry to be blunt but if there are enough of you it should work. The only problem you may have is that the numbers of 997 cars produced is massively more than RS4s so the numbers complaing may be seen to be a drop in the ocean for Porsche, good luck.
 
  
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You raise a very good point here. As I'm sure any owner of a 997 (with or without a warranty) whose engine has gone 'bang' must be driving around wondering if the replacement engine will go the same way. Judging from these post it happens somewhere between 20,000 to 50,000 so that 2 year factory warranty just may not be long enough.

You may argue that it's your choice to extend the warranty in the first place but why, because you know there is a likelihood of your engine going 'bang'? That sure doesn't sound right to me. Maybe Porsche should stand by their engine and extend their factory warrant to 5 years Dont know
 
  
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This raises yet another question, why did Porsche feel it necessary to almost double the cost of the extended warranty. Is it possible there is a direct link between that and the failiure of the 997 Gen 1 engine? Maybe there is a storm brewing Question
 
  
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Wattie
Zolder


Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 5668



PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

apw2007 wrote:
This raises yet another question, why did Porsche feel it necessary to almost double the cost of the extended warranty. Is it possible there is a direct link between that and the failiure of the 997 Gen 1 engine? Maybe there is a storm brewing Question


Personally I think Porsche had to raise the warranty cost due to OPCs taking the p*** with RMS warranty claims: It is totally unproveable (because the seal is effectively destroyed on removal), but I would not be at all surprised if less than 10% of them actually needed to be changed. Surprised

In fact I am going to start a poll on this... Thumb
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regard to the warranty going from £895 to £1,350, I would have thought the following factors affect the quoted premium.

1 - Greed (ie expected profit margin)
2 - Losses (ie claims trends actual engineering based or service dept invented)
3 - New risks (ie increased cover or services or simply risk rebalance)
4 - Inflation (or other external costs or taxes)

Now, (1) is understandable when you are under pressure to bolster bottom line in our current economic climate when car sales have dried up. Particularly when a fearful or wealthly demographic exists to squeeze. It may also be to increase margin per contract to compensate for decrease in contracts written (ie less warranties sold) due to economic effects.

(2) may be related to either a genuine need to claw back payouts on engineering failures, or to cover the over zealous Service Team Managers seeking to RMS their way to budget every month. We can't tell (ie infer) if this price rise indicates a genuine loss of reliability in the product.

(3) in this case must be considered as the NEW warranty exceeds the OLD in a number of ways in terms of total items covered. It is effectively "bumper to bumper" including many items which were previously excluded and/or deemed wear and tear. The new items specifically include PCM, Computer and Stereo for example. The new premium may also reflect the fact that there will be a forced re-profiling of customers (cars) and therefore income stream as the NEW warranty excludes cover (and hence depresses warranty sales) on cars with what are relatively small modifications from OEM spec. Finally, the NEW warranty price includes the price of the 111 point check. Previously this was a 2 hour labour charge of approx £200.

In this case (4) may well represent a step change in inflation (ie warranty price has been held static for a number of years and now jumps) or more likely, due to our currency depreciation all those lovely EURO denominated German parts are more expensive than a year ago even if labour rates are fixed locally in GBP. As for taxes, I note the new warranty prices have not moved with the new 15% VAT (the new price was published prior to Budget). I don't mind - I probably would have put a 2.1% donation in the Porsche Benevolent Fund on the way out any way. Floor

Last edited by GT4 on Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good analysis GT4. I wonder how much of 2) has been impacted by 997 Gen 1 Engine Replacements?
Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wattie wrote:

Personally I think Porsche had to raise the warranty cost due to OPCs taking the p*** with RMS warranty claims: It is totally unproveable (because the seal is effectively destroyed on removal), but I would not be at all surprised if less than 10% of them actually needed to be changed. Surprised


A not very nice picture of Porsche is starting to emerge on this thread, real or perceived!

If they being ripped off by their OPC's, passing the cost onto their customers through the warranty is not what I would call a great business plan. And if all this talk of failed engines is true and it is an inherent fault, is makes it look like they got their eyes glued to the profit margins and have lost track of the bigger picture - a decision they may come to regret which is a pity because I would hate to see the brand spoiled.

Sad
 
  
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ResB
Estoril


Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 3708
Location: North Yorkshire

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Consider it's an insurance policy. Is it actually Porsche footing the bill? I mean Porsche is likely to have paid a premium, then the insurance company takes it over...

For a company who turns into a hedge funder for a few weeks and makes billions I doubt this one has slipped under the carpet.
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ResB wrote:

For a company who turns into a hedge funder for a few weeks and makes billions I doubt this one has slipped under the carpet.


Don't be so sure, maybe they bought a lot of carpets with the billions
 
  
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Wattie
Zolder


Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 5668



PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apw2007 wrote:

A not very nice picture of Porsche is starting to emerge on this thread, real or perceived!

If they being ripped off by their OPC's, passing the cost onto their customers through the warranty is not what I would call a great business plan.


The warranty is an insurance product from a separate organisation: they will merely assess the risk and price their policy accordingly (adding in sufficient profit for Porsche GB and the OPC that sells it.) Dealers earn so little out of selling new cars, and since Block Exemption Regulations changed in 2003, the ONLY thing that they can do that no-one else can is warranty work. So it is inevitable that some will exploit the warranty to its full extent - thereby increasing the risk for the insurers - thereby increasing the premiums... and so on.
 
  
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theogeor
Albert Park


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 1502
Location: Northwood Hills

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wattie wrote:
apw2007 wrote:

A not very nice picture of Porsche is starting to emerge on this thread, real or perceived!

If they being ripped off by their OPC's, passing the cost onto their customers through the warranty is not what I would call a great business plan.


The warranty is an insurance product from a separate organisation: they will merely assess the risk and price their policy accordingly (adding in sufficient profit for Porsche GB and the OPC that sells it.) So it is inevitable that some will exploit the warranty to its full extent - thereby increasing the risk for the insurers - thereby increasing the premiums... and so on.


Which might explain why the cost of the extented warranty have gone up signifigantly over the last 4-6 years. Does anybody see a reason for that ??? Question
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has gone off track, funny how it does that. IMO the engine failure is the more likely of the 2 and time will tell as the clock is ticking over on all those 997 Gen 1 engines out there
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PAH GmbH (Porsche Automobile Holdings) has officially been a hedge fund (in the sense it has made more money on the markets than making and selling cars) every year since 2001.

It has made the majority of it's profits in FX (currency) trading every year until FY 2008, when equity (VW shares) trading overtook FX.

In their best automotive profit year (2007) they still made FIVE times as much money on the markets!
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My old Old Dad, God rest his soul. always commented that that the division between Insurance and a "Protection Racket Bandit " was always a fine one Rolling Eyes .
In the end RMS leaks are and were annoying, but in the greater scheme of things relatively cheap and easy to replace compared to a complete Engine replacement on a 997 Gen 1 standard car. Now that will really push up the cost of the "Protection Racket Bandit" sorry Insurance for peace of mind ( which is doubtful as the reason, [while the effect is clearly known however] for 997 Engine Failures is not defined ).
So the real issue still remains, which is what this thread started as "Have you or others suffered a major 997 Engine Failure?
Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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Jamie
Reims


Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 4311


2007 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Bob, in answer to your question. Still no. Working fine last time I checked!
 
  
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speedy_un
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 299



PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine's ok too.

Please explain the difference between a cataclismic engine failure, a major engine failure, by definition a minor engine failure and a run of the mill regular engine failure.
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In reply to Jamie and Speedy-un, I'm delighted you cars are OK, and long may that be the case.
My definition of a Cataclismic Engine Failure is where the only fix is to completely replace the engine.
A Major Engine Failure woiuld be removing the engine from the car and carrying out work to rebuild the unit including new parts. Say a head gasket failure, or a burnt exhaust valve.
A Minor Failure is categaorised as being fixable in the car, such as a RMS Seal Change.
Best Regards Big Bob
 
  
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james35
Newbie


Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Posts: 17
Location: North Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that this might sound pretty stupid Very Happy

But does the major engine failure relate to both the 3.6 and 3.8 997 engines?? Or is one more prone to it than others?
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James
The information on these major engine failures that require new engines to be fitted, is difficult to get hold of because it seems to be shrouded in secrecy. It is reliably believed that there are at least 40 engine failures out there in the UK that have a commom thread of failure related to the initial erosion of the Nikasil Coating principally on Bore 6, but there is evidence too of Bore 4 being affected.
From what we can gather it is only the 997 Standard Generation 1 Engines that have been affected. The GT3 and Turbo versions have a different base engine developed from the Racing GT1 Unit.
Sorry I cant be more precise Dont know . But it was the attempt to collect more precise data on failures that lay behind this Thread being started.
Best Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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