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bigfish
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 113



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigBob

This is from a letter to the CEO from research this guy did...

".... and found that there are well over 35 people, all of whom have experienced exactly the same fault in the engines of their 997’s, and I do mean exactly the same. Originally I thought I was just unlucky but it appears this is a common problem and one which Porsche seem to have little or no interest in resolving or supporting. For your information all 35 of the people who contacted me with exactly the same problem had done mileages of less than 42,000 miles, and all had their cars serviced every year with complete engine oil changes, 72% of the people who got in contact with me had their cars exclusively serviced with Porsche."

I think that rather than "collate" loads of data - a letter directly to Andy Goss or to Germany is the way to go.
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tigster wrote:
We heard that a sign of engine failure is the left exhast pipes going blacker than the right hand side - is this right as a sign worth watching for?

The key here Tigster is is the blackness due to fuel or oil. Normally fuel will result in a Lambda Sensor stimulation and the Engine Management Warning Light will light up, unless its a rare pure sensor combination roblem
If the blackness is definitely oil, then its a possible, because it is understood that rings break, and bores are scored etc leading to a total failure. Or it might be bores score/pick up then rings break etc. So yes it could be a pointer.
If thats happening the sooner you get a qualified someone to check it out it may stop a total failure etc, but no guarantee that the fix may not be a New Engine.
Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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Carrera4S
Paul Ricard


Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 3009



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigfish wrote:
BigBob

This is from a letter to the CEO from research this guy did...

".... and found that there are well over 35 people, all of whom have experienced exactly the same fault in the engines of their 997’s, and I do mean exactly the same. Originally I thought I was just unlucky but it appears this is a common problem and one which Porsche seem to have little or no interest in resolving or supporting. For your information all 35 of the people who contacted me with exactly the same problem had done mileages of less than 42,000 miles, and all had their cars serviced every year with complete engine oil changes, 72% of the people who got in contact with me had their cars exclusively serviced with Porsche."

I think that rather than "collate" loads of data - a letter directly to Andy Goss or to Germany is the way to go.


Well over 35 people, is that 36 or 37? True figures not supposition! Doesn't seem that many considering the number of 996/997/986/987 Porsche cars sold in the UK.
 
  
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damian wrote:
Well over 35 people, is that 36 or 37? True figures not supposition! Doesn't seem that many considering the number of 996/997/986/987 Porsche cars sold in the UK.


The topic is about failure the 997 only (failure of the early 996 engines is already well documented).

IF there is an inherent fault then Porsche would be wise to offer some help regardless of the car being under warranty or not. Lets for a minute assume it is only 35 cars, the cost to Porsche to replace those engines is insignificant to the goodwill it would generate AND it would stop threads like this. IMO it sounds like Porsche are being short sighted because if enough people start to perceive the 997 as having an inherent fault they will stop buying their cars - and these days there plenty of other options
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All
Many thanks for support to carry on with this as well as sound advice on the contra issues, and pitfalls.
I'm particularly appreciative for advice etal from Resb, Theogeor, Pete Hadfield, and Maxie. Although all inputs have been a help.
I appreciate that we need to avoid the famous pitfall of "Opinions are like ars*holes - every one has one!"
Having worked at a senior level in a major motor manufacturer I'm tuned into the "Customer Focus" versus "Protect the Company Reputation" dilemma wack that companies often face.
The key issue is any approach has to be totally Data Driven Thumb .

A moment of reflection first Question , the Generation 2 997 Engine has been significantly revised in terms of architecture, and a key statement was it was cheaper to manufacture. Cheaper can apply to ease of machining, reduction in assembly time, reduction in scrap rates, and reduction in repair rates etc etc.

Returning to Gen 1 997 Engines, the failure park could be a design fault, but Porsche would only be forced to "campaign and provide generosity" if the numbers were large and as they are clearly not large enough, then Porsche would probably, choose to ignore and try to keep a lid on things (Removal from PCGB forum etc).
They would probably follow the same path if the issue relates to a very periodic and random manufacturing issue.

What I want to establish is does the DATA indicate a discreet manufacturing problem, that can be shown to some extent to have a start and a finish date. If Porsche can be prodded into formally recognising this possibility, then the park of affected vehicles/engines can be defined and those in the affected build range are in with a chance of getting recall or repair cost support (eg like Bigfish).

Now people have pointed out in posts to date that Porsche will have this data, but they may not want to understand what they should do with the Data because they are in the "Protect the Company Reputation Mode".

So if Resb and Theogeor would help to set up the enquiry fields to collect the data it should include the following:
1) Model description Body/Derivative/Engine Size/4WD or 2WD
2) Transmission Type ie Auto/Manual
3) Vehicle Serial Number (VIN)
4) Engine Serial Number
5) First Registration Date
6) Mileage at Failure
7) Detailed as possible decription of the failure from Dealer/Indy
Cool Causal Facors if known (eg Oil Pump drive failure etc) from Dealer/Indy
9) Date/Details of last Service before Failure
10) Has failure been accepted or rejected by Porsch GB
11) If failure rejected by Porsche GB reasons for rejection.
12) Any other info felt relevant.

This data can then be used to present a cogent argument why Porsche GB need to look again. This may just help those currently having to suck hind t*t nooo .

Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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Carrera4S
Paul Ricard


Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 3009



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apw2007 wrote:
Damian wrote:
Well over 35 people, is that 36 or 37? True figures not supposition! Doesn't seem that many considering the number of 996/997/986/987 Porsche cars sold in the UK.


The topic is about failure the 997 only (failure of the early 996 engines is already well documented).


FFS it's the same bloody engine!

Is it documented? Or is it yet more internet scaremongering? 1 or 2 engines per 10000 cars is probably statistically well within the bounds of designed failure from an industry standard PoV.
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enclose a picture of "Clint Eastwood" Alias George who will be the "Attack Dog" for this campaign.
Regards Big Bob bye
 



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Porkaholic
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 323
Location: Cornwall

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice poncho Big Dog! thumbsup
Got to get 42,000 miles on the Porker quick, then it'll be O.K.
That's my engineering evaluation of the situation!
 
  
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speedy_un
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 299



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Porsche will already have this data, and what's more they will already know the threshold at which point they will take action. Either based on financial calculation, or the legal requirements of the continent or country of use. It would be very unusual if the Voice Of The Customer changed this.

This is standard practice for any manufactured item that is sold to the consumer with warranty, and is going to be well understood in this case as the 997 engine is a dervative of the 996, and so has plentiful production data.

Your data will show a very small number of failures relative to total numbers produced, and of those very few (if any) will be directly attributable to manufacturing defect.

The RMS issue shows that Porsche are prepared to stand behind their product, albeit in an unofficial official way.

The engine failure is extremely frustrating.

Perhaps the best way to tackle this is through media exposure (eg full page ad in the times), but I for one would be dead against this as it will kill the residual value of my car! And for proof of this I would refer you to prices of early 996's.
 
  
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bigfish
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 113



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speedy - agree that Porsche know this data - proven by the 2 minutes that took to tell me it was No6 piston gone pop & required a new engine

But I still like the idea of a "collective" dialogue to Porsche - and see what they say.

And you are correct the engine issue is really frustrating

And a look at PCGB shows a few engine issues there as well
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C'mon guys and gals lets get behind this piece of work and see if "people power" can score a point or two if the Data supports.
Otherwise Clint Eastwood might come calling ie "Do you feel lucky punk - well do you?"
Big Bob bye
 
  
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goodethernet
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 256



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Bob wrote:
C'mon guys and gals lets get behind this piece of work and see if "people power" can score a point or two if the Data supports.
Otherwise Clint Eastwood might come calling ie "Do you feel lucky punk - well do you?"
Big Bob bye



It won't score any points. Really.


Still good luck with it if you want to go ahead.
 
  
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goodethernet
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 256



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damian wrote:
Doesn't seem that many considering the number of 996/997/986/987 Porsche cars sold in the UK.


I think that's exactly the point!
 
  
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Bob wrote:
C'mon guys and gals lets get behind this piece of work and see if "people power" can score a point or two if the Data supports.
Otherwise Clint Eastwood might come calling ie "Do you feel lucky punk - well do you?"
Big Bob bye

The only people interested are going to be those that have had an engine failure while not covered by the warranty - those that got it repaired under warranty are likely to be disinterested.
IMO if you want to take this further then you need to set up a seperate link to a questionaire which people can complete online and the link can be posted on other forums - you may get owners from Europe completing the questionaire so that would need to be taken into account. You not going to want to gather information on every fault so it will need to be kept short and simple ie model, variant (manual, tip), mileage at point of engine failure, if was covered under warranty and if it wasn't covered, did Porsche make a contribution to it's repair.
And be sure there will be members of the various forums that will discourage you from persuing this but more than likely they will be working for Porsche (and other manufacturers cause all will have a vested interest in the outcome) so don't be detered!

Last edited by apw2007 on Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apw2007 wrote:
... and these days there plenty of other options


"Porsche, there is no substitute."

Which tells you all you need to know about either their lack of fear you will opt for one of these so called other options, or their acceptance of any problem.
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

apw2007 wrote:
Big Bob wrote:
C'mon guys and gals lets get behind this piece of work and see if "people power" can score a point or two if the Data supports.
Otherwise Clint Eastwood might come calling ie "Do you feel lucky punk - well do you?"
Big Bob bye

The only people interested are going to be those that have had an engine failure while not covered by the warranty - those that got it repaired under warranty are likely to be disinterested.
IMO if you want to take this further then you need to set up a seperate link to a questionaire which people can complete online and the link can be posted on other forums - you may get owners from Europe completing the questionaire so that would need to be taken into account. You not going to want to gather information on every fault so it will need to be kept short and simple ie model, variant (manual, tip), mileage at point of engine failure, if was covered under warranty and if it wasn't covered, did Porsche make a contribution to it's repair.
And be sure there will be members of the various forums that will discourage you from persuing this but more than likely they will be working for Porsche so don't be detered!


Thank you Andrew. I think your suggestions are very valid, and the best place to start is to collect the data we can extract from theis Forum and then post it elsewhere to collect further data. Resb and Theogeor are you still up to the "software challenge" to try to set up the data collection process. I'm a bit weak on this side of the game Old , but still have a trick or two up my sleeve for exploiting the data.

I have posted on a related thread "Why I will never buy another Porsche - 997 Engine Failures" the gospel according to Revd. Big Bob why we should do it, but I don't want to bore nooo you all by also posting it here.
However please remember for "Injustice to proceed it only requires good men to do nothing" I think cataclismic failures on 997 Engines are not good for the Marque whether covered by warranty or not Question

Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to get some subtle heat, veiled threats, and a little abuse to encourage me to shut down my interest in collecting data on major 997 Engine Failures. Very interesting!
If you have an interest in seeing such data collection and analysis of the facts to continue, please send mt a PM
Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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Pete Hadfield
Suzuka


Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 1147
Location: 25 miles north of Manchester

2007 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BB, can you expand on your 'heat'?

Pete
_________________
Pete,

997 C2S, no longer a 'Ring virgin
 
  
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Jeff
Indianapolis


Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 2377
Location: Chavley South South


PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Bob wrote:
I'm starting to get some subtle heat, veiled threats, and a little abuse to encourage me to shut down my interest in collecting data on major 997 Engine Failures. Very interesting!
If you have an interest in seeing such data collection and analysis of the facts to continue, please send mt a PM
Regards Big Bob bye


In a Wild West tone

"Bob, people like you aren't wanted in these parts. Why don't you mosey on back from where you came...."
_________________
Jeff
 
  
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread definitly has legs, can see The Sun having fun with the user names:

WATTIEGATE: BIG BOB TRAWLS THE INTERNET FORUMS LOOKING FOR DEEP THRUST TO SUPPLY INSIDER INFORMATION ON PORSCHE ENGINES GOING LIMP
 
  
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