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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:30 pm    Post subject: Have you or others suffered a major 997 Engine Failure? Reply with quote

As a consequence of another 997 Thread "I'll never buy another Porsche 997 Engine Failure - Annoyed" I am exploring if there are enough people on the 911.UK.Com Forum who can provide access to data on Major Engine Failure on 997 Engines, either as a result of personal experience or by providing me access to those who have.
The objective would be for me to coordinate enough anecdotal data of failures and the type of failure to see if as a Forum we can put together a case for examination by Porsche UK, using the Forums representation of many Porsche Owners as a lever.
I'm also prepared to obtain data from the PCGB site too.
This is motivated by (and I know there are some who are less sympathetic!) by Bigfish's experience, and the concern that as many owners dont do much annual mileage there may be a timebomb ticking away here that could further impact the value of our cars credit crunch or no credit crunch.
If you think this worth doing let me know, also if you think I'm full of sh*t let me know that too!
Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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Senoj
Zolder


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 5207
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BB, personally I think you may be flogging the proverbial dead horse.

I would be interested to see the survey results but online forum reports will always be biased to the bad news, the internet is a pop off valve for frustrated owners..... I know I've done enough of it Smile

I would imagine that your ratio of real world failures vs non failures may not be enough to influence any major change in PGB policy, if that is the intention?

However, I applaud the effort and would agree that the more realistic information that is gathered and shared can only help everyone.
 
  
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bigfish
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 113



PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Bob

Another forum member has indentified 35 owners I believe

I know of 3 cars in Reading OPC in 4 weeks that needed a new engine

I think this is a very valid exercise

I for one..am most definately "in"
 
  
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Tigster
Newbie


Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 23



PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We heard that a sign of engine failure is the left exhast pipes going blacker than the right hand side - is this right as a sign worth watching for?
 
  
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ResB
Estoril


Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 3708
Location: North Yorkshire

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I welcome initiatives such as this but, didn't a recent thread about a 997 engine failure get removed (possibly by request!) on PCGB forums?

Bob, if I had time, I could set up an online database for people to fill in, it would just need a list of pertinent questions to ask.
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Mr Toad
Newbie


Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 31
Location: Under the car, changing my oil.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Bob, I think this is worth doing. From what I’ve seen already (this is entirely my personal opinion if you’re allowed that these days) the engine has a design floor in as much as, the amount of emulsified oil and water that can build up in the oil filler tube is crazy! Water running back into the engine oil of any car aint a good thing. The car is serviced every two years, so for two years you drive around with water in your oil. People wet them selves debating if they should use 0/40 or 5/50 in there engines but seem not to give much thought as to the water content. Out the oil every 6 months that’s what I think. Its common sense. I bought bangers of eBay with less crap in the oil than my low mileage 997. Go for it B.B!
 
  
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thumbsup Big Bob I think you right to do this, the only place to gather information is on forums like this and we have seen what happens where the manufacturer has influence (threads gets removed which leaves you wondering why). Manufacturers don't always want to own up if there is an inherent fault and if no one takes the initiative then we will never find out if (i) the problem exists and (ii) if it does, just how big it is. Porsche will no doubt only report the failures of 997's within their network and exclude all those outside which will help skew the percentages in their favour.
If your database throws up a bigger problem than the odd engine going bang, PGB will sit up and take notice because they not going to want that to get into the public arena. And as a possible future owner of a 997, I would want to know if there was likely that my engine was going to go fail (with or without a warranty).
 
  
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theogeor
Albert Park


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 1502
Location: Northwood Hills

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BB let me know if you want any help in creating an online Q/form that will enable us to get info. Its a great idea that might provide a better picture on what the reality is and what can be done
Not sure if we can get info from other sources as well....
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Senoj
Zolder


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 5207
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it would need to be more conclusive than the 35 page long "survey" on PH regarding 996 wet sump engine issues........

That seems to have been started with a similar objective but seems to not have resolved itself in any way.

Do it by all means but make it count is all I'm advocating.
 
  
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garyw
Montreal


Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: warwickshire


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ResB wrote:
didn't a recent thread about a 997 engine failure get removed (possibly by request!) on PCGB forums?

It was, probably for the same reason as this site...

garyw
 
  
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Pete Hadfield
Suzuka


Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 1147
Location: 25 miles north of Manchester

2007 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyw wrote:
ResB wrote:
didn't a recent thread about a 997 engine failure get removed (possibly by request!) on PCGB forums?

It was, probably for the same reason as this site...

garyw


garyw/ResB, if your talking about the scottish OPC and the frustrated 911uker then the thread was locked/removed because that was exactly the right thing to do. I applaud the mods/administrators for doing it because we overstepped the mark on a public forum and I was as guilty as others were in making it personal. I log on here every night and read public accessible threads as a 'member' of a great organisation and I am priviledged in that respect. The last thing we want is the site being sued and closed down which will leave me watching tv instead of being on here.

So we need to stay on the path of justice or at best fairness and try and keep personal stuff in the background. What BB is after is data, not the other stuff that names and shames and gets a lot off our chest and makes us feel better that we may have lost someone some business.

Now where's that tv remote control...........

Pete
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Maxie
Yas Marina


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 8386
Location: London


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea BB. Not sure if we as a forum can cause a stir but perhaps a newspaper (such as the motoring section of the Sunday Times) could be interested to pick up your findings and even give it a mention in their pages somewhere and then openly ask Porsche what would they like to do to help frustrated 997 owners. Worth a punt.

~ Maxie
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Porkaholic
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 297
Location: Cornwall

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today my 997 3.8S engine was so good, so fast, so sweet, the car still surprises me with it's eager speed and agility. What a great all round sportscar the 997S is.
But thanks to people banging on about the engines going bang and I am grateful to you highlighting this problem, I am now overly concerned about my engine going pop. Damit Confused
So I 've decided to drive the car as much as possible before it does. The car is just too good to sell despite it's potential problems and I don't feel inclined to take a financial hit based upon something which on the law of averages should not happen, famous last words!

Meanwhile the following precautionary steps will be taken.
1. Slow warm up procedure not exceeding 3,000 r.p.m. for first few minutes of driving unless distracted by something interesting.
2. Change the oil every 6 months before it turns to porridge.
3. Not thrash the Porker as if it were Hertz hire car.
4. Pay for an effective warranty even if it means we don't eat for a while
(but keep buying beer)

And when the inevitable happens Sad remember that someone on this forum said 'told you so' and go buy another engine or Porsche.
What else can you do?
Of the cars which have gone t*ts up it would be interesting to know which were triptronics, manuals and engine mileages.
 
  
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mark pearce
Approved Trader


Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 2737
Location: Nationwide


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ResB"]I welcome initiatives such as this but, didn't a recent thread about a 997 engine failure get removed (possibly by request!) on PCGB forums?
quote]

You have to remember that PCGB are subsidised by over £100,000 a year from Porsche GB,
I posted a post here and on pistonheads and PCGB regarding the change in warranty rules last september and I emailed the chairman, the point i was trying to make was not the price increase but the 90 day rule that you have to own a car for 90 days before you can buy an extended warranty, i stated that my interest wasn't that of a motor dealer who had had part of his businesss model taken away from him, but that an important level of protection was bieng denied to all Porsche owners,
The response i had from the chairman of PCGB was Porsche should be congratulated for increasing the levels of cover,
I felt as an owners club in regular meeting with Porsche GB, they should raise the disapointment from the members in the new rule, this view was shared by most watercooled register secretaries, Porsche club was not prepared to do anything about it.
Similar engine post have been deleted from the PCGB forums, and members expelled.
I can only assume in my own opinion that the financial state of the club being so dependent on an enormous subsidy from Porsche GB that they wont do anything to jepodise that support, as without the club would be bankrupt.

So dont rely on Porsche Club to represent the views of its members with Porsche GB, the chairman doesn't even think there is an engine issue!!

Porsche GB do read all the various post on Pistonheads, 911uk etc on a daily basis, so you can be sure thy're reading everything we say.
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO (for whats it's worth)
(i) survey should be accessible through a link, in other words separate from 911uk (should be harder for it to be closed down)
(ii) if possible it should be an yes/know questionaire so there is no opportunity for people to name/shame dealers etc
(iii) and keep it simple because I assume all you trying to do is establish if there is a problem (rather than how PGB dealt with it)
and on another note, PGB should be pleased that people care enough that they want to get to the bottom of what is going on, rather than walking away from the brand beacuse there are enough threads popping up to make people have second thoughts.
 
  
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goodethernet
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 256



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: Have you or others suffered a major 997 Engine Failure? Reply with quote

Big Bob wrote:
As a consequence of another 997 Thread "I'll never buy another Porsche 997 Engine Failure - Annoyed" I am exploring if there are enough people on the 911.UK.Com Forum who can provide access to data on Major Engine Failure on 997 Engines, either as a result of personal experience or by providing me access to those who have.
The objective would be for me to coordinate enough anecdotal data of failures and the type of failure to see if as a Forum we can put together a case for examination by Porsche UK, using the Forums representation of many Porsche Owners as a lever.
I'm also prepared to obtain data from the PCGB site too.
This is motivated by (and I know there are some who are less sympathetic!) by Bigfish's experience, and the concern that as many owners dont do much annual mileage there may be a timebomb ticking away here that could further impact the value of our cars credit crunch or no credit crunch.
If you think this worth doing let me know, also if you think I'm full of sh*t let me know that too!
Regards Big Bob bye


My opinion: I can understand the frustration of individuals who have had a problem and then also had a less than satisfactory response (in their view) from the dealer/warranty cover/Porsche GB but I can't see what this exercise would actually achieve.

1. It will inevitably be biased towards problem cases unless you are planning to get data from people who have never had a problem and you won't get a clear picture of that as they largely won't be on these forums.

2. Porsche already has the data you are trying to collect so you won't be highlighting anything new to them. I think they already know that these cases are discussed on forums and are, therefore, in the public domain. I can't see any of the media running a "porsche has a significant engine problem" story for the simple reason that it's not true.

3. What, exactly, would you want Porsche to do when confronted with the fact that you have gathered X cases of 997 engine failure? First thing they will say is there are Y (much, much bigger number than X) cases of non-engine failure and also that they will deal with any individual failure according to their customer service and warranty processes. If they subsequently don't do that, then I think each individual, unfortunately, will need to fight their case.

I personally think that the whole exercise would be a hiding to nothing. I'm obviously speaking from the stand point of someone who has owned 2 faultless 997s. Others' views may obviously be different.
 
  
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Have you or others suffered a major 997 Engine Failure? Reply with quote

goodethernet wrote:

My opinion: I can understand the frustration of individuals who have had a problem and then also had a less than satisfactory response (in their view) from the dealer/warranty cover/Porsche GB but I can't see what this exercise would actually achieve.

1. It will inevitably be biased towards problem cases unless you are planning to get data from people who have never had a problem and you won't get a clear picture of that as they largely won't be on these forums.

Think you missing the point which is simply to establish just how many engines have failed and if there is a common fault

2. Porsche already has the data you are trying to collect so you won't be highlighting anything new to them. I think they already know that these cases are discussed on forums and are, therefore, in the public domain. I can't see any of the media running a "porsche has a significant engine problem" story for the simple reason that it's not true.

You say there isn't a problem and I would be interested to know how you know as I doubt that PGB have ever published a list of the number of engine failures on the 997 (and why should they). I don't see why anyone (other than PGB) would want to discourage someone trying to collate the information

3. What, exactly, would you want Porsche to do when confronted with the fact that you have gathered X cases of 997 engine failure? First thing they will say is there are Y (much, much bigger number than X) cases of non-engine failure and also that they will deal with any individual failure according to their customer service and warranty processes. If they subsequently don't do that, then I think each individual, unfortunately, will need to fight their case.

What PGB does is entirely up them but IF the general feeling is that there is a fault, they should pay attention to how people perceive their brand because after all there plenty other manufacturers snapping at their heels

I personally think that the whole exercise would be a hiding to nothing. I'm obviously speaking from the stand point of someone who has owned 2 faultless 997s. Others' views may obviously be different.
 
  
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Jeff
Indianapolis


Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 2377
Location: Chavley South South


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given Porsche's constantly climbing sales figures, record profits, expansion etc I don't think they'll care much whether you tell them 100 people have had engine failures out of warranty and they won't buy another Porsche. There are plenty more people where they came from.

Is this merely just a symptom of the fact Porsche production numbers have increased 10 fold with new models and hence we're seeing a 10 fold rise in failures as would be expected? And as expected (whether you accept it or not) with a new engine design there will be problems no doubt resolved in revised editions.

There is an unfortunate lesson to learn here. 997 = warranty if you want peace of mind. Gone are the days you could risk it unless you have a big budget.

And there is no point in arguing "it shouldn't happen". If it shouldn't happen Porsche would put a 10 year warranty on the engines, but they don't, and that tells you something.
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ResB
Estoril


Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 3708
Location: North Yorkshire

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete Hadfield wrote:
garyw wrote:
ResB wrote:
didn't a recent thread about a 997 engine failure get removed (possibly by request!) on PCGB forums?

It was, probably for the same reason as this site...

garyw


garyw/ResB, if your talking about the scottish OPC and the frustrated 911uker then the thread was locked/removed because that was exactly the right thing to do. I applaud the mods/administrators for doing it because we overstepped the mark on a public forum and I was as guilty as others were in making it personal. I log on here every night and read public accessible threads as a 'member' of a great organisation and I am priviledged in that respect. The last thing we want is the site being sued and closed down which will leave me watching tv instead of being on here.

So we need to stay on the path of justice or at best fairness and try and keep personal stuff in the background. What BB is after is data, not the other stuff that names and shames and gets a lot off our chest and makes us feel better that we may have lost someone some business.

Now where's that tv remote control...........

Pete


No Pete, I'm not talking about the Scottish OPC. Although I never read the post on the PCGB website, someone mentioned on here that a post regarding an engine failure was removed due to external pressures I understand.

The point I was making albeit not very successfully was what Mark had said in his post, but just to reiterate and perhaps be a a little clearer, I doubt you'll get any help from PCGB. However, if a site was set up to recover such information then it's possible the PCGB members will complete the form.

Dont know
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Carrera4S
Paul Ricard


Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 3009



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh no, not another thread like the many that are out on most Porsche related forums right now.

Not only do you need to record those that have failed but also those that haven't! A handful of engine failures in a multitude of working engines isn't going to do much other than prove that Porsche 'may' have 1 failure in every 500, 1000, 10000 engines. Maybe that's exactly what we want, conclusive proof that in the internet world - those that have been wronged shout the loudest!
 
  
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