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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Understand your anger. Have you thought about going to the Office of Fair Trading or Trading Standards. Certainly worth a punt.
Also consider going to the Citizens Advice Bureau, when I was a Generalist Adviser in my local area I did help an owner (non Porsche) with a similar issue.
Please dont give up just get even eh
Send me a PM for any help on my suggestions.
Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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Wattie
Zolder


Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 5668



PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to say I would be livid if it happened to me, but to be pedantic about it you are not actually a customer of Porsche GB, so why should Porsche GB 'Customer Services' do anything for you?

When you choose to buy a car from an Independent, without Porsche warranty, you presumably do it to save some money compared to buying from an OPC (which would have given you a full warranty as part of the purchase price and so you would have to pay nothing).

I'm sorry, but IMO Porsche are just protecting their own network of dealers that have invested many £millions to be able to sell new cars, complete warranty work and generally represent Porsche in the UK. If word got around that you could save £5,000 by buying independently and still get a new engine on 'goodwill' who would still buy a car from an OPC?

However, if you have it in writing from Porsche that the failure was a manufacturing fault and nothing could have been done to prevent the failure, you may have a case for a Civil action against the manufacturer? I'm not a lawyer, so don't know how you would go about it...
 
  
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theogeor
Albert Park


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 1502
Location: Northwood Hills

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wattie wrote:


When you choose to buy a car from an Independent, without Porsche warranty, you presumably do it to save some money compared to buying from an OPC (which would have given you a full warranty as part of the purchase price and so you would have to pay nothing).


While the point you are making has its own logic that I fully undestand what if you buy a car privately??
I bought my car from a private seller who bought it new from Porsche UK and it was fully maintained at OPC and had a service and full check before I bought it. What ground do they have in case I have a catastrophic failure ?
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Wattie
Zolder


Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 5668



PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theogeor wrote:
Wattie wrote:


When you choose to buy a car from an Independent, without Porsche warranty, you presumably do it to save some money compared to buying from an OPC (which would have given you a full warranty as part of the purchase price and so you would have to pay nothing).


While the point you are making has its own logic that I fully undestand what if you buy a car privately??
I bought my car from a private seller who bought it new from Porsche UK and it was fully maintained at OPC and had a service and full check before I bought it. What ground do they have in case I have a catastrophic failure ?


I'm afraid you are on your own pretty much when you buy privately. However, if you continued with the OPC service history I guess you would be more of a 'customer' of Porsche than someone who provided a profit opportunity to a competitor, so may be considered a bit more favourably for a 'Goodwill' contribution.

If you are really concerned about it I would get a Porsche warranty, or stick £1400 under your mattress every year Thumb
 
  
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bigfish
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 113



PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your coments & concerns.

What really gets me is;

1) The OPC made me get a taxi back after engine went pop - £50 cab when seeing as I had to cough up over £7k was a bad start
2) Fact the car passed an 111 point inspection, and needed nothing doing (oh....apart from a new engine PC )

But my main bug bear is the "random" and to be honest "dont care" attitdue of goodwill that seems to stem from their CEO Mr Goss. Some get looked after...some dont. Yep if you buy & service through OPC you should be I guess looked after "more"...but as Porsche GB manage Porsche interests in UK to tell a customer to go away after an engine fault that Porsche blatently admit is a manufacturing issues is just wrong. No ifs or buts in my book. just wrong. And they can stick any further business from me for ever. A little bit of TLC in my direction & I would be a customer probably for life.
 
  
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abcheetham
Hockenheim


Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 687
Location: West Yorkshire


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG Thats a disgraceful outcome, I have the same view of Mercedes after a catalogue of issues with a new '54 reg CLK i had a few years back - I'll never buy a Merc again, as much for the treatment I received let alone the car, so I know how you feel. I take every opportunity to tell everyone how crap Merc were to me, i even bought a Merc watch that stopped ticking!!
When you bought the 997 was there any warranty with it?
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997 C4S GT3 Aerokit
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mike brown
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 466



PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bigfish I am afraid that what you have been through is sadly mostly the norm. I once bought 14 new artic trailers and when they needed a fault correcting due to a component failing on all the trailers I was told that as they were beyond the warranty period by about six months that I was on my own, the swictboard lady even told me that I was free to go elsewhere, she actually told me it was a free country. Despite them trying for my business again on many occasions I never ever bought from them again. They went broke some years later, you might know the name Crane Fruehauf. In the end if manufacturers dont listen or lend some degree of empathy to the customer they will fail. Regards Mike
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone else on the 911UK.Com Forum the enthusiasm to raise the general concern about 997 Engine Reliability/Durability with Porsche UK?
If there is consensus from enough Forum Members that this is worth a shot then I'm prepared to do a bit of spade work to try and make a case and point using Forum contact data an knowledge.
Let me know if this is worth kicking arround.
Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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cossack
Newbie


Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 19



PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry to hear of your problems and tbh be it for the right or wrong reasons ive decided to sell my beloved 4s, im just not sleeping as well as i usually do since i bougth it and just need a good nights kip Sad im hoping to go for a turbo as there seems to be less issues with these. im really gutted to be selling a perfectly good car on accounts of something that might happen but i just cant settle myself, she will be in the adds section for sale at cheap money for anyone intrested.
good luck with you engine big fish
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigfish wrote:
... & I would be a customer probably for life.


Except, sadly at the only time it mattered, when you bought it.

If I buy a used washing machine out of the paper (or from an independent "dealer") that is out of manufacturer's warranty, I'm afraid it is a case of caveat emptor.

If it broke down two months later, I certainly wouldn't think Hotpoint owed me anything. The previous owner who possibly didn't put Calgon in it and overloaded it - yes, the seller - yes, the person who I paid to confirm it was ok - yes, but not the manufacturer. If it didn't have third party warranty or OPC warranty, I would also have to lay the blame at my decision to gamble. That is the definition of any insurance.

Porsche made honest money on it once when it was first sold, but after that they had no reward. So why should they have liability? You expect a continuing loyalty to you, after the warranty has expired and after you have shown no loyalty to them (by buying "off balance sheet"). You are technically not their customer. Porsche would at least have had a moral obligation to the first owner. It could be argued you had no relationship in this transaction.

Having said that, I am not completely heartless, and I am sorry for anyone who buys something and it breaks. When it costs that much to buy and or to repair I personally worry and hence "there, but for the grace of God" etc etc.

Now, IF there is a genuinely proveable manufacturing fault, then European law allows a defacto liability on the manufacturer for a period of six years from sale.

However, the standard of proof would presumably require a statistical view. Ie if 99.9% of identical engines do not blow up, then they are effectively manufactured correctly. Sadly, that removes this protection (rightly) from the 0.1%. Statistically it is a random or user defined event, not systematic.

I bought my car privately and without OPC warranty. I keep a self insurance fund under the bed for the day my unwilingness to spend out the OPC premium is proved wrong.

Sometimes, as much as we and lawyers would wish otherwise, there is no one to blame and no party to sue.
 
  
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Jeff
Indianapolis


Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 2377
Location: Chavley South South


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT4, I agree with what you say. While I am gutted that people are having these problems and I believe there must be a design fault that is causing this same issue to occur, if the design fault is occurring outside the standard warranty period it's not Porsche's problem. If every company was to try and warrant their goods for the life of the product for no extra monetary outlay (ie, you have not paid for a Porsche extended warranty) then goods will either cost four times as much or the companies would cease to exist due to profit.

I also believe as GT4 said if you decide to gamble by not taking out an extended warranty then expect the bill! I have no warranty on my GT3 and take that risk. If it dies, I pay to fix it out of my own pocket. I would not expect Porsche to pay for it and age of the car makes no difference. I would not expect anything different assuming it was outside the warranty period OR maybe I was a proven regular buyer of Porsche approved dealers cars or new cars. And even then I'd be begging and not expecting.....

Let this be a lesson to people. The 997 engine isn't proving to be bullet proof. Take out a Porsche extended warranty and we can avoid the sob stories. Harsh but true.

Jeff
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mike brown
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 466



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You all seem to be missing the point, why in hells name should you need a bloody warranty for a 70 k car that is supposed to be made to the highest standards, even if bought outside the OPC and secondhand. My Mitsubishis over the last 12 years have never had extended warranties, and they dont go bang, I have never seen a replacement engine lying around the dealers either. I agree with the earlier post ref cs and selling due to sleepless nights, its a damn worry and no mistake, I love my 911 and wont sell it but I do not have 10% of the faith in it that I have in my shogun. I will not spend 1400 quid either for peace of mind because that works out at46 pence per mile on my average of 3000! I am getting so wound up about all this I think I might delete this forum from my favourites. Maybe ignorance is bliss, I never worried like this with my boxster before I knew of all these problems, but then if I had I might not have bothered with Porsche at all. Mike Brown
 
  
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Jeff
Indianapolis


Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 2377
Location: Chavley South South


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike brown wrote:
You all seem to be missing the point, why in hells name should you need a bloody warranty for a 70 k car that is supposed to be made to the highest standards, even if bought outside the OPC and secondhand. My Mitsubishis over the last 12 years have never had extended warranties, and they dont go bang, I have never seen a replacement engine lying around the dealers either. I agree with the earlier post ref cs and selling due to sleepless nights, its a damn worry and no mistake, I love my 911 and wont sell it but I do not have 10% of the faith in it that I have in my shogun. I will not spend 1400 quid either for peace of mind because that works out at46 pence per mile on my average of 3000! I am getting so wound up about all this I think I might delete this forum from my favourites. Maybe ignorance is bliss, I never worried like this with my boxster before I knew of all these problems, but then if I had I might not have bothered with Porsche at all. Mike Brown


So because not everyone agrees with you you will hate the place and not return? I can understand someone being angry over this problem but I wouldn't be expecting Porsche to pay out of warranty.

If you think the warranty is too expensive then you obviously have £6000-£8000 available for a new engine and would prefer to risk it?
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Wattie
Zolder


Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 5668



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Jeff and GT4 here...

It is entirely feasible that Porsche are aware of this issue and have done the maths and discovered that it is far, far cheaper to just change any engines that fail within warranty, than to engineer a solution! The very few that will fail in the hands of their first owner will have almost no impact on future new car sales - as the worst they will suffer will be the inconvenience of a breakdown (and will likely get a free driving adventure or something to compensate) Thumb

When I bought a brand new Audi TT in 2000 I had to go without it for 6 weeks while it went back to the factory in Germany for ESP to be retro-fitted. However, I had a decent brand new 2.4 A6 to use throughout, a free day at Bedford Autodrome (include a hot lap in the 2-seat Formula Palmer Audi car) and an improved car as a result. OK, so I haven't bought an Audi since, but only because I moved up to a Porsche Thumb

Even though I work every day with the retail motor industry, I have absolutely no idea whether Audi TT engines explode at 50,000 miles or not, nor do I care, and it certainly would not stop me from buying or recommending a new Audi Hand

To the best of my knowledge nobody's died as a result of a 996/997 engine failure (unlike the early Audi TT issues), so Porsche can afford to take a pragmatic cost-benefit analysis view. That's why they are still the most profitable car manufacturer in the World - by a huge margin in terms of PPU.
 
  
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apw2007
Zolder


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 5798
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wattie wrote:
I'm with Jeff and GT4 here...

It is entirely feasible that Porsche are aware of this issue and have done the maths and discovered that it is far, far cheaper to just change any engines that fail within warranty, than to engineer a solution! The very few that will fail in the hands of their first owner will have almost no impact on future new car sales - as the worst they will suffer will be the inconvenience of a breakdown (and will likely get a free driving adventure or something to compensate) Thumb


If 997's get a reputation for having a faulty engine and it's heading that way with the amount of threads popping up on various forums then the bottom will fall out the used car market for the 997, especially those outside the official network. Porsche should be paying attention to what is going on here and I would put money on the fact that they are watching these threads very carefully!
 
  
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northpole
Monza


Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 201



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record I do not agree that Porsche are doing the appropriate thing by relying on new car customers and their insurance backed warranties to deal with this problem.

From what people like Baz at Hartech have posted here and elsewhere it is apparent to me that the engineering on 996 & 997's has a calculated (perhaps mis-calculated to be fair) residual/ latent defect which will affect a certain percentage of vehicles.

This problem may appear during the initial manufacturers warranty period or it may fall later when folks have to decide whether to have their vehicle serviced within the Porsche network and take out the warranty or opt for a specialist independent. Bear in mind that there are quite a few folks who have greater confidence in the engineering competence of some independents over the official dealers - but that is a different topic.

I suppose technically your argument may stand up ie Porsche owes no duty of care to anyone outside the network/ warranty scheme. Very difficult to prove otherwise in a court of law without internal documentation being leaked.

More realistically however, I believe that Porsche are sticking their heads in the sand and run a serious risk of something nasty coming up from behind and biting them on the bum.

That something nasty is brand value. The thing which has made Porsche attractive to so many people over decades. The reason people who are not wealthy have still aspired to owning a 911, even when their income may be more in line with a Focus or Golf. It isn't just because 911's look and sound and drive great. No. It's because 911's have been regarded as a safe place to put your money (or loan). Look forward in time and if the perception shifts to the point where 911 ownership becomes regarded as a lottery through continued bad publicity it seems abundantly clear to me that the aspiration further down the totem pole will become diluted, the rising risk perception will see to that. This will lead to substantially reduced demand for a product which is now manufactured in greater numbers than in the air cooled days and a slump in used 911 values. (The recession isn't helping matters but again that's slightly off topic). Look a little further ahead, a bit further up the totem pole and ask yourself at what point will folks who are in the position of being able to spend £70 - £120k on a new 911 say, hold on, I'm going to lose how much in depreciation??

Sorry for waffling on but this thing could cost Porsche dearly. Potentially catastrophically. And in my view this will be fed from the lower end used 911 market and painfully work its way up. Not top down.

Porsche, if you are listening, you'd be well advised to act sooner rather than later. Just my opinion of course.

Peter
 
  
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northpole
Monza


Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 201



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I think Andrew pretty much said in 5 lines what I managed to extend to half a page!! Embarassed

Peter
 
  
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Wattie
Zolder


Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 5668



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apw2007 wrote:
Wattie wrote:
I'm with Jeff and GT4 here...

It is entirely feasible that Porsche are aware of this issue and have done the maths and discovered that it is far, far cheaper to just change any engines that fail within warranty, than to engineer a solution! The very few that will fail in the hands of their first owner will have almost no impact on future new car sales - as the worst they will suffer will be the inconvenience of a breakdown (and will likely get a free driving adventure or something to compensate) Thumb


If 997's get a reputation for having a faulty engine and it's heading that way with the amount of threads popping up on various forums then the bottom will fall out the used car market for the 997, especially those outside the official network. Porsche should be paying attention to what is going on here and I would put money on the fact that they are watching these threads very carefully!


Yeah... and rubbing their hands together in anticipation of the profit from used car warranties at £1400 a pop Thumb

Porsche don't get a penny from a used car sale outside the network and an OPC sale will have a warranty, so why should they care? Dont know

Very, very few 996 and 997 will be kept beyond warranty expiry by the first owner, so engine failures will hardly affect new car sales... Even 10-year old 996's have a higher residual than any other 10-year old £60k car, so I don't see dropping p/x prices for 2-year old cars having a massive impact on new car buyers.

I'm sorry guys, but if I was in Porsche's position I wouldn't be chucking £millions of hard-earned profits (or hedge fund wins) at a few people (who probably buy 3/5 of feck-all from them) whinging about their used cars on Internet forums. nooo
 
  
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Wattie
Zolder


Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 5668



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

northpole wrote:

That something nasty is brand value. The thing which has made Porsche attractive to so many people over decades. The reason people who are not wealthy have still aspired to owning a 911, even when their income may be more in line with a Focus or Golf. It isn't just because 911's look and sound and drive great. No. It's because 911's have been regarded as a safe place to put your money (or loan).
Peter


I think that Porsche made a commercial decision to risk the 'traditional' brand value 12 years ago when they decided to mass-produce the 996, and again 6 years ago with the launch of the Cayenne, then 4 years ago with the Cayenne 3.2 and the Cayman S, and last year with the Cayenne diesel, the VW take-over, and this year the Panamera...

What has any of the current Porsche range got in common with the cars that sparked my generation's interest in the brand? Question

Sorry, but Porsche is now just another huge conglomerate run by accountants who don't give a s*** about the sound of a racing flat six engine, or the smell of Castrol R: The 911 contributes such a small proportion of their turnover now that it is highly unlikely that they will see an impact on the bottom-line even if all of them self-destruct 6 weeks out of Porsche warranty... If anything it will drive more used car buyers into the arms of the OPC, who will then be able to control the market and influence used car prices (and sell another 8 years of warranty at a juicy profit in the process).
 
  
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Jeff
Indianapolis


Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 2377
Location: Chavley South South


PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone who thinks sinking money into a 997 is an investment is living in lala land. As Wattie said, the "investment" side of Porsche ownership left with the 996 mass production and continues on....

You don't buy a Porsche now as an investment..... frustrated

Now only very special models will hold their values better than average. Those that are very low production specials.
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