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GD
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1280
Location: Surrey-ite

2008 Porsche 997 Targa

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:04 pm    Post subject: 996 Engine Problems - Internet fact or fiction? Reply with quote

On a topical note, there's been a lot of discussion around the reliability of the 3.4 and 3.6 water cooled engines.

Not that is helps the chap with the recent engine failure, but I have been looking around a bit on this subject and I am now very much in 2 minds as to whether I'm going to buy a 996.

A friend has had no RMS or engine problems in his 03 3.6 996 and I had no problems at all (inc. RMS) with my 2.7 Boxster over 5 years.

Present issue aside, is it possible that this issue is being blown out of proportion?

I mean, no disrespect, but Internet forums do attract a certain type of poster (present company excepted!!!) and probably isn't representative of the population of Porsche owners.

There's a survey being run on Pistonheads which lists this:

"Out of 73 996's:
- 13.7% or 10 engine failures (six 3.4 and four 3.6)
- 52% or 38 cases have had RMS. When you have it, you get it on average 1.3 times.
- 41% or 30 cases have had none of these two problems (seventeen 3.4s, twelve 3.6, one unspecified).
In the survey, there are 30 3,6s, 39 3.4s, and four unspecified.

To summarize, the mean car in this dataset is a september 2000 996, that has 52% chance of an rms problem at 39.6K and 13.7% chance of an engine failure at 46.6K."


Now this is massively subjective and is purely based on PH owners (past/present) that can be bothered to post. It's more likely you will post if you've had a problem (after all, this is a very popular reason why people register in the first place). Furthermore, I've also noticed that the posters on this forum (and PH) have a higher track day usage than average (not that this should affect the reliability)...and on average, a 7 year old car!

Furthermore, I bet that RMS are replaced under warranty because of the awareness (indeed, I am sure people take out extended warranty for this main reason...and to get a cheap replacement clutch).

It's a nice little earner for OPC, we take our warranty to cover ourselves and the dealer replaces it FoC, but of course invoiced Porsche GB (who I think own the OPC dealer network now anyway). I bet the used car warranty doesn't lose money for OPC, so the real losers here are the consumer.

Is it possible that the RMS problem wouldn't be so widely reported if it wasn't covered under warranty and people accepted that the car drips oil occassionally? I would bet money that this is the case.

I don't for one minute believe that greater than 1 in 10 911s have had engine problems. That would clearly demonstrate an issue that Porsche would have to address.

Looking at used 996s for months now, I rarely come across one with a replacement engine (I'd suggest more like 1 in 10)....although, that's not to say that more of them have had replacement engines, it's just the advertiser didn't think this was important to mention!!! Smile

My view is that there is a small issue here, which does unfortunately affect a few unlucky few in a big, big financial way.

But is it any more than another manufacturer....I personally don't believe so.

However, this whole topic has really made me very concerned as to whether I want to pay £40k on a Porsche....and I'm gutted tbh. But not as gutted as I would be if I had a major problem and needed the engine replacing (whether in or out of warranty, because the resale value of the car would be affected regardless...not to mention the inconvenience of not having the car whilst it's repaired).

This is a reason why I'll never buy a BMW again, because these are nowhere near as reliable as they should be...especially when compared to Japanese cars.
 
  
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crazyhorse
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Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 60
Location: near wits end


PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

take the extra warranty. Laughing
 
  
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mark pearce
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Joined: 06 May 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why do i put a porsche warranty on my casrs at a cost of a £1000 when i could buy a car care plan one for £400?

statistics are not an exact science

But i would be a lot wealthier man if i never had RMS's to replace on a lot of the cars i buy
its a big gamble if things go wrong and you have an intermediate shaft snap £10K OUCH!!
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martynb
Monza


Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 159
Location: east anglia


PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest if you are now that concerned about it I wouldn't get one - it isn't going to go away once you have laid out 40k on it.

How about a TT Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
 
  
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GD
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1280
Location: Surrey-ite

2008 Porsche 997 Targa

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The turbo bodied cars won't fit in my garage. The nose catches on the floor, which leaves the normally aspirated 3.6 engine option only (excluding C4S of course).
 
  
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7311
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its been blown a bit out of proportion- there are literally 100s of 1000s of M96 engined Porsches about worldwide- think of all the boxsters, 996s and 997s.

The catastrophic failures get reported, but are a very low proportion of cars sold.

RMS is not a big deal in 99% of cases. Most cars, not just Porsches, I suspect leak oil a bit from somewhere. My 993 needed work on RMS...

I certainly wouldn't let it put me off.
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Deepak Madan
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Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 26



PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

996s are big boys toys, big boys with big wallets, 993s are for the value conscious owner.
speak to Sid Spanner on this forum, he has replaced about 20 996 engines at his time with Porsche
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Porsche Torque
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1987 Porsche 930 Turbo

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deepak Madan wrote:
996s are big boys toys, big boys with big wallets, 993s are for the value conscious owner.
speak to Sid Spanner on this forum, he has replaced about 20 996 engines at his time with Porsche
if you count boxsters that makes it 50 engine failures
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Seagull
Estoril


Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 3657



PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still less failures than M3 engines over the same period - and I got that from someone who had just moved from BMW dealership to a Porsche one.

Last edited by Seagull on Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Dill
Silverstone


Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 103
Location: Flipside of Didcot

2001 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guildforddad wrote:
The turbo bodied cars won't fit in my garage. The nose catches on the floor, which leaves the normally aspirated 3.6 engine option only (excluding C4S of course).


move house
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7311
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sid Spanner wrote:
Deepak Madan wrote:
996s are big boys toys, big boys with big wallets, 993s are for the value conscious owner.
speak to Sid Spanner on this forum, he has replaced about 20 996 engines at his time with Porsche
if you count boxsters that makes it 50 engine failures


Is it true though that Porsche had dealers replace engines under factory warranty that had RMS failure?

What proportion of those 50 did you replace for int shaft or cylinder wall failure?
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Porsche Torque
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1987 Porsche 930 Turbo

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

most were replaced because of intermediate shaft failure inc some early 997`s
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7311
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that a random event, or does driving style/service history have anything to do with it?
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vlad
Imola


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 868
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the intermediate shaft? Have heard of and know where the RMS is (have had that replaced twice - with an advisory at the last service it needs doing again!)
Notice in the history file of my car it had the intermediate shaft seal replaced at 12,000 - seems this one is the killer though if it goes - the RMS just results in drips on the garage floor!
Cheers
 
  
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Chris W
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Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 7845
Location: North, South, East & West

2000 Porsche Boxster 986

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deepak Madan wrote:
996s are big boys toys, big boys with big wallets, 993s are for the value conscious owner.
Confused Confused sweeping statement!!

On the subject of % failures and all the RMS stuff I can't comment, but on everyday consumer goods 'major' quality problems are hugely exaggerated, data in fact suggests a return of 1-3% faulty goods are deemed sufficient to get a product a reputation or perceived to have a 'quality' problem.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 996 issues amount to something like 1-3% meaning that you'd be hard pressed to come across any when looking to buy (i.e. 1 in 50). In fact given that 'the' issue can be catastrophic and expensive to fix some of these cars end up in the breakers yard, the lucky ones are fixed under warranty.

Statistics are a guide only but common sense prevails.
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7311
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a dead cert that at some point if you own an F355 you will need to buy new exhaust manifolds at £3000+. You will also very likely need new cats, new rads, and worse case scenario, an engine rebuild due to worn valve guides. I know of one chap that shelled out over £30,000 in one year, yet still loved it.

Yet I've never heard a potential Ferrari owner worry about these to the extent that Porsche folk whine on about RMS (£400), and other rare engine issues.

If you want a car that doesn't go wrong ever, then buy something Japanese.
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Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 12734
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2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

when the old posts return shortly there are a few very long posts on the subject, but it's not all doom and gloom as in terms of the volumes produced it does effect a small %
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martynb
Monza


Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 159
Location: east anglia


PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
I think its been blown a bit out of proportion- there are literally 100s of 1000s of M96 engined Porsches about worldwide- think of all the boxsters, 996s and 997s.

The catastrophic failures get reported, but are a very low proportion of cars sold.

RMS is not a big deal in 99% of cases. Most cars, not just Porsches, I suspect leak oil a bit from somewhere. My 993 needed work on RMS...

I certainly wouldn't let it put me off.


Too true - the reason you don't see oil under a lot of cars, Mercs included is because there is a catch tray built under the engine - it generally turns to a sticky sludge in there with the heat of the engine and never stains your drive.
 
  
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rich mortimer
Monza


Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 155
Location: bolton n.w. england


PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am actually quite attached to the little drops of oil on my garage floor!
infact the wife slipped and nearly broke her neck on it a couple of weeks ago - now theres value for money! Laughing
 
  
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Porsche Torque
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i totally agree Very Happy
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