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Lola Eve
Newbie


Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 22
Location: London


PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Wolvreen on 02 November 2004

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Lola Eve on 01 November 2004

Sure but its not a watercooled for the sake of it. They needed a quiter engine to meet new low noice legislation. The 993 engine could never be made to be quiet so they had to produce a quiet engine which of necessity needs to be watercooled.


The 996 Turbo, GT2, etc all have 993 engines, modified to be water cooled. Since this is a reliable engine which can take the stress. You just said that a 993 engine - modified to be water cooled would be too loud. If you are right about noise legislation how can this be so lola?

They are watercooled so that they can now have increased power levels.


The "GT" series do not have to meet the new legislation as they are produced to limited numbers. It only applies to mainstrean retail cars not race prepared cars.

Porsche themselves stated "an all new
Porsche

horizontally opposed (boxer) engine Boxer engine was designed, to
meet modern emissions,
noise and fuel economy requirements. It utilizes
water cooling and has four-valve heads for better breathing."

Sometimes its not black nor white but grey.

The oil baffle design flaw is the most important reason for 996 engine failure because there is no new design. The failing water pump and fuel injection pump missues are minor as they have now been fixed and if the franchised dealer does not offer the newer part then Porsche will likely pay for the repairs.


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noony
Watkins Glen


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2087
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Lola Eve on 01 November 2004

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Freddie on 01 November 2004

The 996 engine is seriously unreliable.



Really?

you keep saying this sort of thing yet you don't own a 996. I wouldn't mind if you had real statistics to base your argument on, but you don't. I know you have a right to express whatever opinion you like on a public forum, but when you say untrue things such as this it may well unjustly put potential buyers off.

My dad's 996-model year 1999-has not had a single problem in 18 months of ownership, engine or otherwise. Neither did his 993.


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noony
Watkins Glen


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2087
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Lola Eve on 02 November 2004

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Wolvreen on 02 November 2004

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Lola Eve on 01 November 2004

Sure but its not a watercooled for the sake of it. They needed a quiter engine to meet new low noice legislation. The 993 engine could never be made to be quiet so they had to produce a quiet engine which of necessity needs to be watercooled.


The 996 Turbo, GT2, etc all have 993 engines, modified to be water cooled. Since this is a reliable engine which can take the stress. You just said that a 993 engine - modified to be water cooled would be too loud. If you are right about noise legislation how can this be so lola?

They are watercooled so that they can now have increased power levels.


The "GT" series do not have to meet the new legislation as they are produced to limited numbers. It only applies to mainstrean retail cars not race prepared cars.

The 996 turbo, GT2 and GT3 are all production models-they are not ''race prepared'' cars! They have to meet the legislation too.

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Sean Dudding
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 430



PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As noony says, the Turbo, GT2 and GT3 are all production cars.

They do have a different engine, and this engine has to meet the same legislation. The reason why they do not use this engine in the standard C2 and C4 etc is cost. It costs 40k for a GT3 engine, it is hand built by one man, therefore it cannot be produced in large enough numbers to enable it to be fitted to the cars in the lower end of the 996 range.




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Maxy M
Barcelona


Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1411
Location: Great Britain

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't some folk getting a bit carried away here? And there has been some bollocks written.

Small samples (like of one or two) are no guide to the overall reliability of thousands of cars. There's just no statistical credibility, and that applies equally to reports about good and about bad cars. These have about the same force as anecdotal evidence.

I'd love to know what % of 'ordinary' 996s have had serious engine problems. (Let's accept that 996 Tubos, GT2s and GT3s aren't affected.) Maybe the PClubGB survey will shed some light.

What appears to be incontrovertible is that a) some cars have had BIG problems - even newer ones; b) they've cost big money to fix; and that Porsche Cars GB have at best been pretty indifferent to owners' plight.

Me, I'd love to own a 996 (when I think I can part with my 993), but at the moment there looks to be a significant financial risk. The risk itself might be very low, but if I'm unlucky to get a rogue car the cost to me could be that big money - and it would do me in.

I'm looking (and others are too, I reckon) for some objective evidence about the nature and the scale of the problem. (And maybe for Porsche to show a bit of customer orientation. If they admitted liability for what seem to be product deficiencies it would hardly dent their HUGE profits.)


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Gen II 997 C2 Arctic Silver, 19 in Carrera Classics, PASM, xenons as standard, 345 bhp (!)
 
  
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Dr Mahen Nadarajah
Newbie


Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 46
Location: Wilmslow


PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say there really is some serious crap written here from some people.

Due to legal reasons i cant say all that i would like to share with you. Suffice to say that

1 The 986/996 C2/C4 engines are not totally unreliable. The problem is that you have NO idea which ones will break down. Even Porsche admit that there is NO way they can tell. Some of the earlier design issues such as cracked cylinder linings were easy to spot by the serial numbers but now there is a whole host of other problems that slowly are comming to light.

2 Even though the numbers of engine failures is relatively a low percentage (i am not allowed to say the figure) if you multiply this by the number of cars sold, the number of customers affected would be substantial. The % is well above the industry average. The number of customers affected is further increased due to Porsches decision to become more of a "volume" producer with the introduction of the 986.

3 There is no ONE design flaw in the engine that accounts for all the failures. Its not to say that the components that fail are not intergral parts of the engine. The components are on the whole non serviceable parts and would never be checked for function on routine services upto 250,000 miles.

4 The failures on the whole happen on NORMAL fully serviced non raced non absued cars with low mileage.

5 The overriding factor is that when this sort of reliablity issues exist a marque such as Porsche should step upto the plate hold their hands up and admit that the car that has gone wrong is a dud and put it right. NOT waste time offering 6%discounts on the bill or treating you like you are a total child who just bought his/her first BMX. As i have said before when i pay 80k for a car i am more than happy to pay 80k or more towards a leagl bill if i think that a company is wrong.

6 If the numbers of failure are SO small then this would not be an lage financial issue to Porsche and it would stop the likes of me "going on"

7 The samples may be small I have managed to collect around 40 names with full independant reports. This need to be compared with i think around 450,000 986/996 sold world wide.

8 Just remember to all those "happy" with their 996s your engine may be the next to go








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Maxy M
Barcelona


Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1411
Location: Great Britain

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice one, Dr MN, and thanks for the information and helping the rest of us get a better fix on the scale of the problem.

My interest is partly selfish (is it a wise decision to buy a 996 - or even a Boxster [ouch] - at some time?) and partly concern - even annoyance - that the marque I revere(d) is prepared to treat customers shoddily.

Best of luck to you and to others affected with the campaign and your own claims.


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Freddie
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 103
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Dr Mahen Nadarajah on 03 November 2004

8 Just remember to all those "happy" with their 996s your engine may be the next to go



doom and gloom ... better put that bomb shelter in the garden and stock up on canned food ... but on second thoughts there are better things in life to worry about than my bl**dy car (its only a car, remember that)


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Wolvreen
Trainee


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr MN, I agree with Maxy, good luck an all.

BTW: I have this aching feeling when I read Top Marque, any idea what it could be?

You say you cannot talk about it for legal reasons, what can you say about your case, can you give us an update?


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Dr Mahen Nadarajah
Newbie


Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 46
Location: Wilmslow


PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Wolvreen on 03 November 2004

You say you cannot talk about it for legal reasons, what can you say about your case, can you give us an update?




Belive me i am seriously limitted in what i can say not because i dont want to but my lawers are not happy!! You know how these people get (sorry to any lawers out there)

The update is as follows:

Having told PGB customer services repeatedly that a fully serviced (by Porsche) car failling at 30,000 miles is not acceptable and that the consumer laws are quite strigent on this matter they refused to listen even when i asked them to speak to their legal department.

When i was finally ALLOWED to call the PGB leagl department they basically told me that they had NOT heard of my case!!(see above). The legal department in PGB then told me that they were "waiting on information" from PAG (I assumed from the leagl services). In the meantime gagging orders were placed on PGB customer services who refered me to PGB leagal. Many calles to the leagl department were not "answered". This contiued for a further 5 weeks.

Finally having given PGB leagl services an ultimatum i called PAG legal services in Germany. Afterall we felt that they should know before i issued a summons. I got through to lawer there to be told........... u guessed it he knew NOTHING about my case!!!!!

So a week goes by and PAG leagl comes up with the "we need your engineers report"

I said "whats the point in me telling you whats wrong with my car surely you should conduct your own investigation".

It turns out that, i assume that PGB had told him, that i had insisted that my car not be "touched by Porsche". The guy in Germany had no idea that the car was in an "Official Porsche Centre" had been taken apart by them and was still there!!! He still insisted on my report so we sent the report to him.

A week goes by and PAG legal services guy comes back with "we now need to examine the parts in Germany". What parts i said? It turns out they were the same ones that Porsche had told "after extensive investigation" and a "through diagnosis" had failed.

I can not comment any further at the present time but believe me i will as soon as this is done. The long and short of this is that its now been 5 months, all i have had from Porsche is the run round (i am sure it does not take that long from Reading to Wilmslow to examine my car), not to mention missinformation and total misdirection.

Given the above would you still trust this marque to support you if and when your car fails due to their error?


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PJC
Newbie


Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 6
Location: UK


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


<Sorry image not available after migration>
Are you a member of Porsche Club GB? They are currently in discussions with Porsche at Reading regarding 996 and Boxster (rear main seal) failures such as this.

PJC


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Ajit
Newbie


Joined: 30 Oct 2004
Posts: 32



PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might contact Porsche Club GB - I think Nick Doczi has written a letter from the Club to Porsche regarding RMS and engine failures on 996s.
www.porscheclubgb.com

Good luck


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Dr Mahen Nadarajah
Newbie


Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 46
Location: Wilmslow


PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Ajit on 09 November 2004

You might contact Porsche Club GB - I think Nick Doczi has written a letter from the Club to Porsche regarding RMS and engine failures on 996s.
www.porscheclubgb.com

Good luck




Guys i have been a member of the club for some time and have been in touch with Nic on this and other matters. Nic has been a great help to the club and has taken things forward but with the limitations faced by the clubs affliation with Porsche Cars.

Thank you for the suggestion


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Ajit
Newbie


Joined: 30 Oct 2004
Posts: 32



PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been a member for years - but must say that if the Club are moving things forward with limitations due to affiliation with P. Cars, then thats extremely distressing and annoying.

The purpose of the Club is surely to support the membership. I hate the thought of that being tempered by political correctness.

I have followed this and other RMS threads with interest and hope you guys all get the closure you deserve.

I wonder if RMS/failure issues have been sorted for the 997.

Cheers

Ajit


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Maxy M
Barcelona


Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1411
Location: Great Britain

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's be nice to think that PCGB would leverage its relationship with Porsche GB to get a result for members (and other enthusiasts). But maybe there's money involved...

Now why should anyone have found it necessary to start TIPEC???


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Jon Green
Newbie


Joined: 26 Oct 2004
Posts: 6
Location: ASHTON -WIGAN- LANCS


PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi folks!

Been reading these 8 or so pages and getting a bit worried with all the blown engines knocking around,and it raises a few questions.

When the 996 engine lets go,what actually goes?

Why does it cost 10 grand?

Can the engine not be repaired with new parts?

Can the vehicle not be covered with something like an RAC 5 star mechanical breakdown warranty which covers all engine components

I have a 1998 carrera 4 full porsche history with 75000 up it.......am i next?


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Dr Mahen Nadarajah
Newbie


Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 46
Location: Wilmslow


PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Jon Green on 13 November 2004

When the 996 engine lets go,what actually goes?

Why does it cost 10 grand?

Can the engine not be repaired with new parts?

Can the vehicle not be covered with something like an RAC 5 star mechanical breakdown warranty which covers all engine components

I have a 1998 carrera 4 full porsche history with 75000 up it.......am i next?


Jon I can try to answer some of the questions for you,

When the engine goes its not just one thing that is the root cause of the problem. The common causes in my limitted experience, have been cracked cyliner lining, intermediate shaft, porous blocks and on a chronic basis the rear mail seal. The single main factor in all the components that have failed has been that they are all non serviceable parts that would never be inspected other than during manufacture. All the failures other than the RMS tend to be terminal as the car can not be driven.

In most cases when the engine goes the whole unit is shipped back to Germany and a new one fitted. This has also lead the problem that most people in the past have not known what exactly has failed as the the engine was not disassembled to verify the cause. Also most of the failures have occured during the normal 2 year warranty period so the engine is replaced FOC. In a car that would be valued at 55K the cost of replacement was not that significant to the owners at that time, now the cars are in the 30K region the cost does become significant!

The cost of the new engine at 10K is made up of a few factors. I was quoted 40hrs of labour to strip the engine by my OPC. Then the cost of the engine at now 6.5K finally fitting the new engine and VAT comes to just over 10K.

The engine can be reparied but remember that the cost of taking the engine to pieces is still at about 40hrs (i know independants quote 16-25hrs). Then the cost of the parts and so on. There is always referbised or crash recovered engines to think about which are cheaper

Porsche provide a cover that costs 750pounds per year but has a limitted cover of 10k for parts and labour.

The problem is that no one, not even Porsche know which engines will be next to go let alone what factors or the mileage. At 75k you would expect that your engine has survived long enough that it will keep going.

Hope the above helps




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Porsche
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 12733
Location: Nürburgring Nordschleife

2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

great info there Dr.....

I'm keeping a close eye on all of this and I hope that one day you will get the right resolution to this problem...



regards


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Rehan Malik
Newbie


Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 43
Location: London


PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Top Gear are doing a slot on buying used Porsches on this Sunday's (5th Nov) show - I have emailed them to ask if they are going to cover the reliability issues affecting 996/Boxsters and Porsche's arrogant attitude towards them and their customers... Perhaps some of you would like to do the same in order to strengthen the case:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/haveyoursay/index.shtml

Of course we can only hope... with fingers crossed :-)


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Wolvreen
Trainee


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume you mean 5th Dec.

Sent my response:

Owners with 996 engine problems (going pop) not being properly reimbursed by Porsche GB is a disgrace. PGB have a poor attitude to us owners, please kick their arses.


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