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Pompeydave
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Joined: 05 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: High mileage 996's Reply with quote

Hi all, first post and all that so be gentle please! Looking to buy my first Porsche and it's an entry level 996 that I'm looking at for starters. Are mileages in excess of 100k anything to worry about if servicing has been done properly? Is there a recognised point at which even with good maintenance an engine is officially 'tired'?
 
  
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T8
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to 911uk 'Dave.

You'll get plenty of useful fresh answers to your question from the helpful people on here but if you have a scroll down this sub-forum you'll find loads of threads relevant to your question and to your idea in general.

To kick you off this one may be of interest.

---> http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=122629&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=high+milage+mileage

I'd never be one to put off someone from buying any 911 but if it's the current market price of high mileage 996s that's attracting you and that £ figure is your budget I'd strongly advise you to do a lot of research before buying one. 'Proper service history' may not be enough and 100k may mean that it's not just the engine that's tired.

Buying one of these cars is only the start.
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Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 359
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome Pompeydave - you will find loads of useful information on this site. There are opposing views on your question, namely:
1) these cars can take high mileages, buy on condition, or
2) it's a case of when, not if, they will need a rebuild. That will cost a lot of money, cancelling out the low purchase price.

I suppose the best advice is to get a potential purchase professionally inspected including a borescope. Other posters will offer their views no doubt!
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bazhart
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Joined: 20 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Service history will make liitle difference to the chances of a high mileage failure occurring.

There are a number of contributing factors. Some relate to owner history (driving style, service and oil change frequency, grade of oil used, warm up procedures etc), some are random (depending on distribution of silicon in the bore material, bonding strength of piston coatings, tolerances in manufacture etc).

So if you get a badly maintained and thrashed car that inside the engine has a random poorer quality number of parts - it will probably have already failed or be on its last legs. But if you get one that was always warmed up properly, driven sympathetically, regularly maintained and with all the original engine internal in the best condition (which describes the majority) it will probably last a good while longer.

The difficulty in establishing its past and internal condition means that the uncertainty may require an engine rebuild and if you could not afford it probably best to avoid this type of car with high mileage.

If you are sufficiently interested to read a huge long technical report on the 4 main weaknesses please contact admin@hartech.org for a copy.

They are however absolutely brilliant cars and a lot of car for the initial money and the odds are you would be OK - it is just that if you were unlucky it could be expensive to fix.

Baz
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arry
Hockenheim


Joined: 02 May 2015
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Location: South Essex


PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go in with a decent slush fund you don't mind spunking if it all goes wrong. Buy sensibly and carefully. And relax. It'll most likely all be fine.
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TurboRob
Silverstone


Joined: 18 Feb 2019
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: High mileage 996's Reply with quote

Pompeydave wrote:
Hi all, first post and all that so be gentle please! Looking to buy my first Porsche and it's an entry level 996 that I'm looking at for starters. Are mileages in excess of 100k anything to worry about if servicing has been done properly? Is there a recognised point at which even with good maintenance an engine is officially 'tired'?


100k miles would be ~5k miles per year average, not much and therefore probably sat idle for months at a time. Would sooner have one that's done 10k+ miles per year average, been used daily and serviced/maintained/rebuilt as required.
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Alex
Le Mans
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Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That'd put mine on 190k. Would you prefer to buy that or one at 100k?
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TurboRob
Silverstone


Joined: 18 Feb 2019
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yours at 190k as it must’ve been consistently well maintained to get there, and most likely has had everything replaced or rebuilt in the process of doing so.
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cvega
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Joined: 25 Feb 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Cambridge


PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazhart wrote:

They are however absolutely brilliant cars and a lot of car for the initial money and the odds are you would be OK - it is just that if you were unlucky it could be expensive to fix.


This. Buy with eyes open. You can't predict the future - it will be what it will be...

mine is at 145k but going strong.. if it blows, will rebuild, it's as simple as that.
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Pompeydave
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Joined: 05 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. Suspected replies would be like these. I’ve always bought high milers whenever I’ve wanted to step up to a brand/model that perhaps I couldn’t really quite afford and I’ve always got away with it. One rule I always stick to though is that whatever I buy it must have a full dealer/indie service history. I also treat the car with respect which helps. I’m in no hurry so can wait for the right car to come along.
 
  
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911munKy
Montreal


Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 558



PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pompeydave wrote:
One rule I always stick to though is that whatever I buy it must have a full dealer/indie service history.


Might be worth rereading the first line of the above Baz Hart post, this guy knows his onions.

Chances are that a 100k+ car will be OK if you get a decent PPI before you buy however these cars are cheap 911’s for a reason (inherent weaknesses) and there is a small chance that you’ll get an unluckily one that requires possibly large expenditure so best prepare for it and feel lucky when it doesn’t happen.
They are a lot of car for the money if you get a good one but you should expect to spend a few £k in the early years sorting out problems and replacing worn components at that mileage.
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Griffter
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 22 May 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People talk about preventative rebuilds to avoid the costs escalating enormously if the crankshaft wears. Obviously as mileage increases you’re going to be closer to the point of a rebuild, not further from it.

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=128514
 
  
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cvega
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 25 Feb 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Cambridge


PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

911munKy wrote:

They are a lot of car for the money if you get a good one but you should expect to spend a few £k in the early years sorting out problems and replacing worn components at that mileage.


Amen. My "cheap" 911 that was in good shape so far has cost £9k over 3 years, a lot of that was preventative maintenance and stuff that just needed doing..
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mattomg
Trainee


Joined: 10 Apr 2019
Posts: 51
Location: Portsouth


PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, if you're in the PO1 area PM me I can let you have a look at my 100,000+ C4S & show you perhaps what to expect

I can also point you towards my Indie who can also get involved in your search with his knowledge & PPI's

Matt
 
  
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demon
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 308



PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought high mileage and then had a Hartech rebuild a couple of years down the line... now its even higher mileage but the majority of those are now my own miles - its always been my daily driver, I'm sympathetic to the car, whilst still using it as intended...

Factoring ~£3k annual costs for basic preventive maintenance and "fiddling/fettling" to your own taste is a pretty good and true rule of thumb

Ultimately once you pass that last factory specified service point you're out in the lap of the gods/your own hands anyway. I've always relied on a good independent that will lay out a bit of a roadmap of what will need attention... and a bit of a hobby of collecting better condition "bits" whenever I happen across them...
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baldguy
Hockenheim


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 662
Location: Berkshire & London


PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had my 145k miles 2001 C4 for 8 months now and the costs for me total £2100. now... that was my choice as it had multiple breather leaks, RMS leaking and I wanted my dual row IMS (the better one) checked. Its dry as a bone now after engine and box out to replace numerous breathers, RMS, check IMS and reseal bolts etc. When the engine came out it blew both engine mounts as these were tired.
The car is dry and quieter (due to new mounts) and drives so nice... Its my 75% daily alongside my Cayenne...
I bought it at 141k from an enthusiast who also had a 964 C4.. it had comprehensive OPC history with loadsa bills, the MOT history was clean with no advisories other than tyres one year.

I love the old dog and keep it clean, it gets looks being an oldie and all for 9K!!!
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
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2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

might make somebody a good project

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1998-Porsche-911-996-3-4-Carrera-2-Manual-Silver-with-Black-Leather/333345539883?hash=item4d9cf1472b:g:3aIAAOSwccFdJdhQ
 
  
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2990


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any ~20 year old 100k+ 996 due to age is going to need these over the next few years:

all brake pipes, front-rear, over gearbox and in front of steering rack.
steering rack hard pipes
all suspension and steering arms and rubber mounts / joints
engine and gearbox mounts
possibly shocks
exhaust boxes
exhaust manifold drilling out
corrosion inspection / remedy in hidden places
Some say the big end bearings are only good for 100k
3.6 cars need a bore score inspection and cross your fingers

Along with usual wear stuff like Clutch/fly, rads, air con, and brakes.

I've done all the above myself to my car, I have spent £6k in parts alone over 6 years and 30k miles.

Nothing is especially hard to do or specialist aside from rebuilding the engine and gearbox - which people on here have done in their sheds. But someone that knows the cars might do the run of the mill jobs faster.
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Poker2009
Österreich


Joined: 09 Sep 2009
Posts: 936
Location: London


PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasz wrote:
Any ~20 year old 100k+ 996 due to age is going to need these over the next few years:

all brake pipes, front-rear, over gearbox and in front of steering rack.
steering rack hard pipes
all suspension and steering arms and rubber mounts / joints
engine and gearbox mounts
possibly shocks
exhaust boxes
exhaust manifold drilling out
corrosion inspection / remedy in hidden places
Some say the big end bearings are only good for 100k
3.6 cars need a bore score inspection and cross your fingers

Along with usual wear stuff like Clutch/fly, rads, air con, and brakes.

I've done all the above myself to my car, I have spent £6k in parts alone over 6 years and 30k miles.

Nothing is especially hard to do or specialist aside from rebuilding the engine and gearbox - which people on here have done in their sheds. But someone that knows the cars might do the run of the mill jobs faster.


Compare that to the cost of a new 911 C2S with electronic steering, PDK which keeps dropping back to 2k revs and now just a 3.0L turbo with lag, and the costs of all of the above is nothing - that is my thinking!

I've just sorted the suspension at 65k miles, and it has transformed the car (so much grip now), when I get to about 90k miles, the plan is to get a Hartech rebuild, and at the same time cross off quite a few things on your list above.
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2990


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poker2009 wrote:

Compare that to the cost of a new 911 C2S with electronic steering, PDK which keeps dropping back to 2k revs and now just a 3.0L turbo with lag, and the costs of all of the above is nothing - that is my thinking!

I've just sorted the suspension at 65k miles, and it has transformed the car (so much grip now), when I get to about 90k miles, the plan is to get a Hartech rebuild, and at the same time cross off quite a few things on your list above.


For sure the 996 is a cheap 911. But it's not a cheap car.

You could buy a much newer 911 if you are canny and sell in a couple of years for next to no difference and not have to do anything but routine servicing. Those are the real cheap 911s.

But yeah I suppose in my 996 tinted glasses I see the early 3.4 as unique in 911 terms - in every review better to drive and faster than anything before it, and it has a symbolic mechanical connection to the controls that egas cars were the first to lose. Although it is mass produced, it escaped the cost cutting of IMS bearings and lesser piston coatings. It's also far cheaper to buy and run than an aircooled, but thats missing the point.
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