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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15263
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was an interesting read Grin
Always makes me laugh when someone like the OP asks " I want a remap who should I use"
He didn't ask "all those that think stocks best please offer me your opinions on why not to remap it and as I am clearly stupid please remind me of the national speed limit while your at it " Floor Floor Floor

Anyway to try and answer the question asked

I used DMS to remap my DB9 and Merc SL they did a good job no complaints but I have also heard their BHP etc data is exaggerated. Dont know

I also have heard stories about ES mostly good but some negative

my NA car is currently with Wayne at Chipwizards who's supposed to be the best of the best when it comes to NA remaps but I dont know about turbos .

9E would be my option with a Turbo. I have never heard anything negative, Ken posts on here as they are a site sponsor , and know lots of guys that have varying levels of 9E upgrade (very surprised Faried hasn't commented yet with his 9XX beast. and all are very happy Thumb Thumb
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AdeD
Imola


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 820


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norfolk & Idea wrote:


Going north of 650hp you'll need deeper pockets. Hybrid turbo's and uprated transmission come into play here thumbsup


Hybrid turbos are pointless on the 997.2 turbos, it's the fueling thats the limiting factor beyond 750bhp and then the clutch / gearbox...
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Norfolk & Idea
Albert Park


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1535
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AdeD wrote:
Norfolk & Idea wrote:


Going north of 650hp you'll need deeper pockets. Hybrid turbo's and uprated transmission come into play here thumbsup


Hybrid turbos are pointless on the 997.2 turbos, it's the fueling thats the limiting factor beyond 750bhp and then the clutch / gearbox...


I stand corrected. So the OE turbo's on a 997.2 turbo are good for 750hp & beyond?

Not that I'm interested, I'm more than happy with the power output of my car. Any additional mods for me will be suspension and chassis. Thumb
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Mezgerite
Monza


Joined: 02 Nov 2016
Posts: 173



PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stock turbo's on a .2 are defo not suitable for 750bhp on pump fuel, no where near.

Ignore any figures posted on a dynojet dyno or claimed by DMS as they are hugely inflated. There are some videos somewhere that shows you what happens when you run a DMS car at brunters against something that is properly tuned.

In the UK with UK figures, i have just tuned a set of hybrid GT2 turbos, which have a larger compressor wheel to 680bhp at 1.5 bar. This does 100-200 in 5.7 seconds on a Tiptronic - PDK would be quicker but this is a .1 car.

You do not want to run a .2 at 1.5 bar for any sustained period of time as the bottom end is just not strong enough, that's the issue.
 
  
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AdeD
Imola


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 820


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mezgerite wrote:
The stock turbo's on a .2 are defo not suitable for 750bhp on pump fuel, no where near.

Ignore any figures posted on a dynojet dyno or claimed by DMS as they are hugely inflated. There are some videos somewhere that shows you what happens when you run a DMS car at brunters against something that is properly tuned.

In the UK with UK figures, i have just tuned a set of hybrid GT2 turbos, which have a larger compressor wheel to 680bhp at 1.5 bar. This does 100-200 in 5.7 seconds on a Tiptronic - PDK would be quicker but this is a .1 car.

You do not want to run a .2 at 1.5 bar for any sustained period of time as the bottom end is just not strong enough, that's the issue.


Plenty of .2's out there globally running 750bhp on stock turbos albeit they're all running meth... as i said limiting factor is the fueling followed by the clutch / gearbox.

Agree .1's need hybrid turbos to reach those figures and any DMS bhp claims.should be ignored..
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AdeD
Imola


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 820


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norfolk & Idea wrote:
AdeD wrote:
Norfolk & Idea wrote:


Going north of 650hp you'll need deeper pockets. Hybrid turbo's and uprated transmission come into play here thumbsup


Hybrid turbos are pointless on the 997.2 turbos, it's the fueling thats the limiting factor beyond 750bhp and then the clutch / gearbox...


I stand corrected. So the OE turbo's on a 997.2 turbo are good for 750hp & beyond?

Not that I'm interested, I'm more than happy with the power output of my car. Any additional mods for me will be suspension and chassis. Thumb


pretty much, i would say 650bhp is the happy figure for these cars though...
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Mezgerite
Monza


Joined: 02 Nov 2016
Posts: 173



PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may get 750 on some random dyno pull, but under any sustained load 750 isn't practical. i'd agree 650 is the max you'd want to run one at.

Look at Imi's car as an example - larger turbos than .2 and that was doing 620bhp ob all it's Vmax runs. Granted it would do more with meth, but it also has larger compressor wheels.

When I tuned Tom's 911 to 720bhp, it was doing nearly identical speeds to the Mclaren 720S, which is also 720bhp - 208mph. We added meth on the same boost and we hit over 214 on the same boost (1.55 bar ) but I've not dyno'd it so don't know how much the power jumped.
 
  
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HSC911
Long Beach


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
Posts: 6479
Location: Bedford


PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mezgerite wrote:
You may get 750 on some random dyno pull, but under any sustained load 750 isn't practical. i'd agree 650 is the max you'd want to run one at.

Look at Imi's car as an example - larger turbos than .2 and that was doing 620bhp ob all it's Vmax runs. Granted it would do more with meth, but it also has larger compressor wheels.

When I tuned Tom's 911 to 720bhp, it was doing nearly identical speeds to the Mclaren 720S, which is also 720bhp - 208mph. We added meth on the same boost and we hit over 214 on the same boost (1.55 bar ) but I've not dyno'd it so don't know how much the power jumped.


If I tune my car, I know where my £££ would be going Judge

Thumb
 
  
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Norfolk & Idea
Albert Park


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1535
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mezgerite wrote:
The stock turbo's on a .2 are defo not suitable for 750bhp on pump fuel, no where near.

Ignore any figures posted on a dynojet dyno or claimed by DMS as they are hugely inflated. There are some videos somewhere that shows you what happens when you run a DMS car at brunters against something that is properly tuned.

In the UK with UK figures, i have just tuned a set of hybrid GT2 turbos, which have a larger compressor wheel to 680bhp at 1.5 bar. This does 100-200 in 5.7 seconds on a Tiptronic - PDK would be quicker but this is a .1 car.

You do not want to run a .2 at 1.5 bar for any sustained period of time as the bottom end is just not strong enough, that's the issue.


Noted, thanks Thumb

My own is running 1.4 bar max and is ~997GT2RS power output, perhaps slightly less. And it's waaaay fast enough for me Smile
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IMI A
Suzuka


Joined: 02 Aug 2014
Posts: 1176
Location: KHI


PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mezgerite wrote:
The stock turbo's on a .2 are defo not suitable for 750bhp on pump fuel, no where near.

Ignore any figures posted on a dynojet dyno or claimed by DMS as they are hugely inflated. There are some videos somewhere that shows you what happens when you run a DMS car at brunters against something that is properly tuned.

In the UK with UK figures, i have just tuned a set of hybrid GT2 turbos, which have a larger compressor wheel to 680bhp at 1.5 bar. This does 100-200 in 5.7 seconds on a Tiptronic - PDK would be quicker but this is a .1 car.

You do not want to run a .2 at 1.5 bar for any sustained period of time as the bottom end is just not strong enough, that's the issue.


Hi Rick, do you think at 680bhp at 1.5 bar rods need doing mate? Will you be going this route on your own turbo?

I'd love to see what that 9e MS109 race map is making on your dyno. 60-300kph in 17-18 secs. Overseas for a while but will make a point of popping over to see you next time in the UK. By the way 9e have just developed a hybrid 60mm VTG kit for the 997.2 turbo. I think the hybrids on the gen 1 are 62mm. Smaller hybrids for the gen 2 as fuelling issue already mentioned but the benefit with larger turbos according to 9e is you can run them with less boost and they produce the same power as smaller turbos running more boost.

By the way Toby is sticking 991 GT2 RS turbos on his RS Tuning 997 GT2 Wink
 
  
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IMI A
Suzuka


Joined: 02 Aug 2014
Posts: 1176
Location: KHI


PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here’s a first run for the new 9e 60mm hybrid 997.2 turbo with two passengers, vpower and 100 cel exhaust. Not bad at all. You’d knock another second of this with race fuel.
 



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996ttalot
Approved Trader


Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 1483
Location: Horley Gatwick


PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well hybrids now do work on 997.2 cars but that was not an easy development project - days and days of tuning to find what was best strategy to make it safe on pump fuel only (vpower99).


We ended up using a 60mm wheel to keep great boost response since the overall goal was not outright power but a decent enough uplift on our existing stage 2 package where we don't change the VTGs.


Fuel pressure is the key to these cars and this is nice and stable all the way through the rev range. We ended up back at stock ignition on the tuning with lots of changes to max air to get the power up. We have a boost strategy in place which runs up to 1.5 bar peak.


There is no way to run these hybrids without the bigger cooling etc. We don't run meth so the better cooling from intercoolers and intake efficiencies is a must.

Power looks around 630 or so whp so maybe around 680ps.


A good result in the end. I am sure the owner will run better performance figures than us as we always like to leave room for the owner to be surprised.

http://www.nineexcellence.com/upgrades/9e-packages/997g2-turbo-stage-3-9e22pdk.html

Ken
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Desert Dragon
Nürburgring


Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 445



PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AdeD wrote:
Norfolk & Idea wrote:
AdeD wrote:
Norfolk & Idea wrote:


Going north of 650hp you'll need deeper pockets. Hybrid turbo's and uprated transmission come into play here thumbsup


Hybrid turbos are pointless on the 997.2 turbos, it's the fueling thats the limiting factor beyond 750bhp and then the clutch / gearbox...


I stand corrected. So the OE turbo's on a 997.2 turbo are good for 750hp & beyond?

Not that I'm interested, I'm more than happy with the power output of my car. Any additional mods for me will be suspension and chassis. Thumb


pretty much, i would say 650bhp is the happy figure for these cars though...


Ade, 650bhp on a long VMAX run with meth is going to screw your engine. I spoke ad nauseam to Manthey about tuning a gen 2 turbo with meth etc. Yes IATS and EGTs are kept cool and you trick the ECU from pulling timing but Exhaust Back Pressure is off the scale and you're literally melting your engine internals on those top speed runs. The ECU pulling timing is there to protect your engine. Unless you have a forged fully built engine you're playing russian roulette with your p and j using your solution on those top speed runs which are very hard on engine wear. This is only really a problem with VTG cars. Conventional turbos like a Garrett 3076 do not have this problem thats why they are a better solution for high horse power.

There is a reason Manthey do not touch the fully forged built engine in a 991 GT2 RS MR rated at 700ps which has so much trick cooling you wouldn't believe. It also has a by pass valve on exhaust so it effectively a straight through exhaust if exhaust back pressure starts getting too high. You basically pay the Euros 70k for wheels, bigger water tank, and aero.

Last year you'd have been recommending that I should go for the ES 750 power kit and 750bhp is fine. You do me, the OP and others a massive disservice by not speaking up but I suppose your own tuner bullying you when you do not pipe up and speak favourably about them is a terrible relationship to have with you tuner. It shouldn't be like that. You're the customer and they blew your engine up. You paid out inc mod / repairs £30k plus not them. Do others a favour so they do not repeat your mistake mate. There's quality tuners out there and then those who break the cars to to break records and then don't tell anyone. DD

Last edited by Desert Dragon on Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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m119cars
Monza


Joined: 28 Jan 2015
Posts: 182



PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desert Dragon wrote:
AdeD wrote:
Norfolk & Idea wrote:
AdeD wrote:
Norfolk & Idea wrote:


Going north of 650hp you'll need deeper pockets. Hybrid turbo's and uprated transmission come into play here thumbsup


Hybrid turbos are pointless on the 997.2 turbos, it's the fueling thats the limiting factor beyond 750bhp and then the clutch / gearbox...


I stand corrected. So the OE turbo's on a 997.2 turbo are good for 750hp & beyond?

Not that I'm interested, I'm more than happy with the power output of my car. Any additional mods for me will be suspension and chassis. Thumb


pretty much, i would say 650bhp is the happy figure for these cars though...


Ade, 650bhp on a long VMAX run with meth is going to screw your engine. I spoke ad nauseam to Manthey about tuning a gen 2 turbo with meth etc. Yes IATS and EGTs are kept cool and you trick the ECU from pulling timing but Exhaust Back Pressure is off the scale and you're literally melting your engine internals on those top speed runs. The ECU pulling timing is there to protect your engine. Unless you have a forged fully built engine you're playing russian roulette with your p and j using your solution on those top speed runs which are very hard on engine wear. This is only really a problem with VTG cars. Conventional turbos like a Garrett 3076 do not have this problem thats why they are a better solution for high horse power.

There is a reason Manthey do not touch the fully forged built engine in a 991 GT2 RS MR rated at 700ps which has so much trick cooling you wouldn't believe. It also has a by pass valve on exhaust so it effectively a straight through exhaust if exhaust back pressure starts getting too high. You basically pay the Euros 70k for wheels, bigger water tank, and aero.

Last year you'd have been eulogising that i should go for the ES 750 power kit and 750bhp is fine. You do me, the OP and others a massive disservice by not speaking up but I suppose your own tuner bullying you when you do not pipe up and speak favourably about them is a terrible relationship to have with you tuner. It shouldn't be like that. You're the customer and they blew your engine up. You paid out inc mod / repairs £30k plus not them. Do others a favour so they do not repeat your mistake mate. There's quality tuners out there and then those who break the cars to to break records and then don't tell anyone. Can't remember which one of their fan boys did that last. DD


Was there really any need for the last paragraph?

The OP asked about getting his Turbo remapped last time I looked, not a full engine make over. So apart from yet another cheap dig at Ade what exactly was the point? For what it’s worth I have no connection whatsoever with Ade other than finding your almost obsessive trolling pretty distasteful.
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NLW73
Barcelona


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 1458
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting read is the crave for power and pulling like the millennium falcon in a hurry out of moss eisley !!

Back to the op and I would ask how you are you using your car? If it’s a road car then is a turbo s not quick enough out the box? I went out in one as a passenger and positively papped my pants and it felt superbike quick as stock

Why would you possibly want anymore grunt on the road and even run the risk of invalidating the warranty?

I understand a bit more noise with the exhaust but I would leave it alone as they are amazing cars out of Stuttgart
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Desert Dragon
Nürburgring


Joined: 03 May 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NLW73 wrote:
Interesting read is the crave for power and pulling like the millennium falcon in a hurry out of moss eisley !!

Back to the op and I would ask how you are you using your car? If it’s a road car then is a turbo s not quick enough out the box? I went out in one as a passenger and positively papped my pants and it felt superbike quick as stock

Why would you possibly want anymore grunt on the road and even run the risk of invalidating the warranty?

I understand a bit more noise with the exhaust but I would leave it alone as they are amazing cars out of Stuttgart


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MaxA
Albert Park


Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 1538
Location: Helsinki


PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ no use asking as I don't think the OP has reappeared since he originally posted the question abnout the remap ... even if we ended up with an interesting thread.
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Mezgerite
Monza


Joined: 02 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMI A wrote:
Mezgerite wrote:
The stock turbo's on a .2 are defo not suitable for 750bhp on pump fuel, no where near.

Ignore any figures posted on a dynojet dyno or claimed by DMS as they are hugely inflated. There are some videos somewhere that shows you what happens when you run a DMS car at brunters against something that is properly tuned.

In the UK with UK figures, i have just tuned a set of hybrid GT2 turbos, which have a larger compressor wheel to 680bhp at 1.5 bar. This does 100-200 in 5.7 seconds on a Tiptronic - PDK would be quicker but this is a .1 car.

You do not want to run a .2 at 1.5 bar for any sustained period of time as the bottom end is just not strong enough, that's the issue.


Hi Rick, do you think at 680bhp at 1.5 bar rods need doing mate? Will you be going this route on your own turbo?

I'd love to see what that 9e MS109 race map is making on your dyno. 60-300kph in 17-18 secs. Overseas for a while but will make a point of popping over to see you next time in the UK. By the way 9e have just developed a hybrid 60mm VTG kit for the 997.2 turbo. I think the hybrids on the gen 1 are 62mm. Smaller hybrids for the gen 2 as fuelling issue already mentioned but the benefit with larger turbos according to 9e is you can run them with less boost and they produce the same power as smaller turbos running more boost.

By the way Toby is sticking 991 GT2 RS turbos on his RS Tuning 997 GT2 Wink


Hey Imi, long time no see Smile

At 1.5 bar and 680 - we are around 620lb of torque and are bringing the boost in gradually - all that 1.5 bar doesn't come in at once and i don't anticipate an issues with the rods like this.

Toby's car I am looking forward to - always liked the way that car was tuned Smile
 
  
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Mezgerite
Monza


Joined: 02 Nov 2016
Posts: 173



PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

996ttalot wrote:
Well hybrids now do work on 997.2 cars but that was not an easy development project - days and days of tuning to find what was best strategy to make it safe on pump fuel only (vpower99).


We ended up using a 60mm wheel to keep great boost response since the overall goal was not outright power but a decent enough uplift on our existing stage 2 package where we don't change the VTGs.


Fuel pressure is the key to these cars and this is nice and stable all the way through the rev range. We ended up back at stock ignition on the tuning with lots of changes to max air to get the power up. We have a boost strategy in place which runs up to 1.5 bar peak.


There is no way to run these hybrids without the bigger cooling etc. We don't run meth so the better cooling from intercoolers and intake efficiencies is a must.

Power looks around 630 or so whp so maybe around 680ps.


A good result in the end. I am sure the owner will run better performance figures than us as we always like to leave room for the owner to be surprised.

http://www.nineexcellence.com/upgrades/9e-packages/997g2-turbo-stage-3-9e22pdk.html

Ken


Hey Ken, i'd say your 680 figure is pretty bang on. What gears are you using for the 100-200?
 
  
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996ttalot
Approved Trader


Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 1483
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mezgerite wrote:
996ttalot wrote:
Well hybrids now do work on 997.2 cars but that was not an easy development project - days and days of tuning to find what was best strategy to make it safe on pump fuel only (vpower99).


We ended up using a 60mm wheel to keep great boost response since the overall goal was not outright power but a decent enough uplift on our existing stage 2 package where we don't change the VTGs.


Fuel pressure is the key to these cars and this is nice and stable all the way through the rev range. We ended up back at stock ignition on the tuning with lots of changes to max air to get the power up. We have a boost strategy in place which runs up to 1.5 bar peak.


There is no way to run these hybrids without the bigger cooling etc. We don't run meth so the better cooling from intercoolers and intake efficiencies is a must.

Power looks around 630 or so whp so maybe around 680ps.


A good result in the end. I am sure the owner will run better performance figures than us as we always like to leave room for the owner to be surprised.

http://www.nineexcellence.com/upgrades/9e-packages/997g2-turbo-stage-3-9e22pdk.html

Ken


Hey Ken, i'd say your 680 figure is pretty bang on. What gears are you using for the 100-200?
we normally just start in 3rd from 40,
But looking at the image we post I think it was in 2nd high up as you can see the shift - sorry cannot remember for sure.

Certainly feels strong - owner has not driven it in sport/sport plus mode yet as he thought normal was quick enough.

Was not planned to do hybrids but turbos were screwed so we thought we would take the opportunity. All about response rather than outright power.
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