Does the 82mm tb upgrade reduce power???????

Thefinn · 12 Feb 2019

Now this is a mod that I have always been an advocate of as when I fitted my larger tb my car seemed to rev quicker and breath easier but have I completely wasted my £££ and reduced power? The reason I am asking is another forum member has pointed me in the direction of the fb post from a renown tunner who suggest this mod make your car loose power in every case.

https://www.facebook.com/100000934727190/posts/2488472351193898?sfns=mo

So my question is and I am hoping some of the other tunners will jump in but I doubt it "are all these mods that we do to our cars such as exhaust and intake actually achieving any gain and does anyone have dyno results to prove it or on the other hand has the socks and sandals crew been right all along and our cars left best alone as Porsche gave us every pony available so the only chance of making them faster is for the driver too loose some weight"

:?:

kas750 · 12 Feb 2019

He certainly knows more than most ...

Alex · 12 Feb 2019

I spotted that on FB too. Jury's still out unril some more data from other sources is seen.

MaxA · 12 Feb 2019

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that for the 9971, you need a larger throttle body, a revised intake plenum and a custom remap in order to add power. And you'll do 'before', 'during' and 'after' runs on a decent dyno to (i) set a baseline, (ii) optimise the remap, and (ii) verify the gains. :dont know:

MisterCorn · 12 Feb 2019

MaxA said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that for the 9971, you need a larger throttle body, a revised intake plenum and a custom remap in order to add power. And you'll do 'before', 'during' and 'after' runs on a decent dyno to (i) set a baseline, (ii) optimise the remap, and (ii) verify the gains. :dont know:

Surely you would need to optimise the map with the original setup before you start. If a remap might give you 35hp with standard hardware, so you change the throttle body and plenum, then remap and find you have 25hp over base, you are still 10hp down from what you could have had. Certainly not easy to set up and test.

MC

Thefinn · 12 Feb 2019

:yeah:

wouldn't you have to custom map the car every time you changed / modded to see if gave gains and then map again with a combination of every mod to see if the combination gave better gains again over the stock items which would also need testing i.e. TB, then TB + headers, then TB + headers + Cats, Then TB + Headers + Cats + induction kit. All in you would have to map the car many many times with every variation (stock and aftermarket) to see which gave the best results so it would take days and cost a fortune unless you have a tuner that had the equipment to trial this and was actually interested in finding out for themselves.

edit: i have just hit a 1000 posts not quite at Phil and Alex's level but still a milestone

MaxA · 12 Feb 2019

MisterCorn said:
MaxA said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that for the 9971, you need a larger throttle body, a revised intake plenum and a custom remap in order to add power. And you'll do 'before', 'during' and 'after' runs on a decent dyno to (i) set a baseline, (ii) optimise the remap, and (ii) verify the gains. :dont know:

Click to expand...

Surely you would need to optimise the map with the original setup before you start. If a remap might give you 35hp with standard hardware, so you change the throttle body and plenum, then remap and find you have 25hp over base, you are still 10hp down from what you could have had. Certainly not easy to set up and test.

MC

I don't think a remap will add much by itself to an NA engine, hence people add the supporting mods and then get a remap. I would have thought that once you have set a baseline, you can test your gains/losses against that. I don't think the mods by themselves will add much. In my (limited) experience, some ECUs can adjust to cope with mods and power can be increased without a new map, but those tend to be forced induction.

MaxA · 12 Feb 2019

Thefinn said:
:yeah:

wouldn't you have to custom map the car every time you changed / modded to see if gave gains and then map again with a combination of every mod to see if the combination gave better gains again over the stock items which would also need testing i.e. TB, then TB + headers, then TB + headers + Cats, Then TB + Headers + Cats + induction kit. All in you would have to map the car many many times with every variation (stock and aftermarket) to see which gave the best results so it would take days and cost a fortune unless you have a tuner that had the equipment to trial this and was actually interested in finding out for themselves.

I suppose you're right. If you want to have an internet war, then you'll need a lot of dyno run graphs to sustain your arguments for the before and afters. And then it'll degenerate into a proxy war about which dyno, what software it was running, what transmission losses are acceptable (15%?), the ambient conditions, was the bonnet up, did you run a fan etc.

I simply don't know what to think about this post on FB. Maybe the throttle body really doesn't help, maybe it was freshly installed and the ECU hadn't adjusted for the second run, maybe there was no remap, maybe the second run was done on a stinking hot day without a fan. Who knows.

When I come to add the intake plenum to my 9972, I'll have my tuner do me a baseline run (or three, to give me an average), and then an afterwards (also average of three). It'll cost around half a day on the dyno, I suppose. And I'll try to be there, so I can see what's going on. And then I'll know what my car did on that day, in those conditions, on that dyno, with that fuel and those mods.

ragpicker · 12 Feb 2019

It certainly challenged my view.

Having spent quite a lot of time with Wayne and seen him demonstrate his craft first hand, including him teaching others, I'd be very surprised if he was wrong.

Phil 997 · 12 Feb 2019

MMMMMM very interesting , mainly due to the fact that it is actually Wayne from Chipwizards thats got my car to remap it.

I know that prior to the engine blowing it was dynode at 400 bhp with less mods than I have on it now and with a Regal remap . so thats 15bhp over stock plus a little for engine age.

When Porsche were developing the 997.2 they were after a bit more power than the previous model which is what they seem to do. interestingly one of those little things they changed on the gen2 was to go with a stock 82mm throttle body ,so if it was a bad idea and not worth doing why did Porsche do it :?: I accept the DFI engine is a different beast but if the 82mm TB did nothing or infact reduced power why would Porsche use it. I have added the IPD plenum

Also theres the very plausible theory that Porsche use induction and exhaust as some of the ways to restrict the Carreras from getting to close to the performance of their flagship cars.

I was having a road race with a 997.1 GT3 in my 997.2 with the mods on it and was able to keep up with the GT3 his only advantage was that he could stay in the gear longer as they have a higher redline. and thats how he gradually pulled ahead of me as I kept hitting the red limiter and losing power.

I have great respect for Wayne at Chipwizards hence him being my mapper of choice after the rebuild, so it will be very very interesting to see what he gets out of my car , I am getting it set up with both the stock airbox with BMC filters and then the Fabspeed carbon twin cone performance induction . again to see what the difference is between the two .

Had this info come from anyone other than Wayne I would have dismissed it instantly, so it will be interesting to see what he has to say about my car and also the fact that I am after improvements on the power curve more than max BHP which is only bragging rights down the pub on a fast road car.

also theres this from Ken who is also highly respected in the Porsche world .worth a read .

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=1101101&i=0

Reading this and other threads I do wonder if the facts get a bit confused eg. has someone tested a bigger throttle body but not changed the plenum , or has someone changed the throttle body and plenum but thought the car would re learn the values and when it didn't instead of getting a remap they moaned across the internet how disappointed they were.
I think we are aware there is a group of mods that include induction exhaust and maps that need to be done to see decent gains and if someone only does part of in the wrong order they may not see the gains another will see.

All I can say is I have changed a lot on both my gen1 and gen2 and feel gains but when Wayne has finished with my gen2 I will report back of whether his equipment says the same as my butt dyno :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Thefinn · 12 Feb 2019

ragpicker said:
It certainly challenged my view.

Having spent quite a lot of time with Wayne and seen him demonstrate his craft first hand, including him teaching others, I'd be very surprised if he was wrong.

Exactly do i now ditch my 82mm tb and stop perusing the induction kit i was just about to order :sad:

-- 997 -- · 12 Feb 2019

Mmmmmmm...... after reading this it has totally pushed me sideways to wanting the IPD Plenum and the 82mm GT3 TB upgrade OH also not forgetting the Fabspeed Carbon twin cone filter upgrade... these were my next mods on my list !!!!

Dilemma :?

Untill i see some positive results on dynos with these mods it may straighten me for me to persue the mods but in the mean time i think ill order up a set of B6 for my Techart Lowering Springs...

J

NineExcellence · 12 Feb 2019

Phil 997 said:
MMMMMM very interesting , mainly due to the fact that it is actually Wayne from Chipwizards thats got my car to remap it.

I know that prior to the engine blowing it was dynode at 400 bhp with less mods than I have on it now and with a Regal remap . so thats 15bhp over stock plus a little for engine age.

When Porsche were developing the 997.2 they were after a bit more power than the previous model which is what they seem to do. interestingly one of those little things they changed on the gen2 was to go with a stock 82mm throttle body ,so if it was a bad idea and not worth doing why did Porsche do it :?: I accept the DFI engine is a different beast but if the 82mm TB did nothing or infact reduced power why would Porsche use it. I have added the IPD plenum

Also theres the very plausible theory that Porsche use induction and exhaust as some of the ways to restrict the Carreras from getting to close to the performance of their flagship cars.

I was having a road race with a 997.1 GT3 in my 997.2 with the mods on it and was able to keep up with the GT3 his only advantage was that he could stay in the gear longer as they have a higher redline. and thats how he gradually pulled ahead of me as I kept hitting the red limiter and losing power.

I have great respect for Wayne at Chipwizards hence him being my mapper of choice after the rebuild, so it will be very very interesting to see what he gets out of my car , I am getting it set up with both the stock airbox with BMC filters and then the Fabspeed carbon twin cone performance induction . again to see what the difference is between the two .

Had this info come from anyone other than Wayne I would have dismissed it instantly, so it will be interesting to see what he has to say about my car and also the fact that I am after improvements on the power curve more than max BHP which is only bragging rights down the pub on a fast road car.

also theres this from Ken who is also highly respected in the Porsche world .worth a read .

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=1101101&i=0

Reading this and other threads I do wonder if the facts get a bit confused eg. has someone tested a bigger throttle body but not changed the plenum , or has someone changed the throttle body and plenum but thought the car would re learn the values and when it didn't instead of getting a remap they moaned across the internet how disappointed they were.
I think we are aware there is a group of mods that include induction exhaust and maps that need to be done to see decent gains and if someone only does part of in the wrong order they may not see the gains another will see.

All I can say is I have changed a lot on both my gen1 and gen2 and feel gains but when Wayne has finished with my gen2 I will report back of whether his equipment says the same as my butt dyno :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

I think the test you linked to was very controlled but importantly if you read through it states that the MAF was replaced on both cars to ensure it was reading 100%. You can have a MAF that is reading 10% down on actual flow without it triggering error messages. The bottom line was on the 997 car used, the air flow was up as showing in the tables from live data.

What I have seen is that sometimes mods that don't seem to show increase on dyno, do show power increase on the road over a specific performance measure e.g. 4th gear pull from 60-100mph using vbox data and the car is quicker using same conditions. It is why I don't use a dyno but real world airflow to the engine.

The maximum we see is 20whp increase approx from any na modifications in total (exhaust etc etc), but also we look for power under the curve.

Wayne and I are collaborating on a project in two weeks time so I'll have a chat and see if I can find out more. One car does not also make something right or wrong either.

Ken

Phil 997 · 12 Feb 2019

Ken that makes a lot of sense , and would explain the butt dyno effect that isn't seen on a dyno. its a very interesting subject as these small mods with moderate gains are where most that like to play a bit are in.
:thumb: :thumb: It will be very interesting to follow your project . and I wouldn't disagree with your thoughts of around 20 whp for all the mods and would be more or less in line with my expectations along with a better power curve .:thumb:

MaxA · 12 Feb 2019

I look forward to learning more from Ken at 9e and Wayne at ChipWizards. In the meantime, I would definitely agree that the benefits of a good package of mods and map are improved drivability and the whole 'area under the curve'. The days of just slapping on a bigger and better bit are long behind us, and usually just reveal weaknesses or restrictions elsewhere.

Does the 82mm tb upgrade reduce power???????

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