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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 471



PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:43 pm    Post subject: Brake pipe over gearbox Reply with quote

Ive just been having a look under my c2 for general condition. Making a list of to do jobs. The brake pipes all look to be shot. I haven’t had the car high enough to see everything but what pipes I have seen are not good. I’m guessing a full replacement is in order so I’ll probably just get braided flexis and do it all.
The worrying thing that I’m reading is that I’ll have to drop the box do do the pipes going over the top.
Is there another way of routing the pipe or is it possible to get a flexi made to get round this?

I’m going to be doing this in the garage on stands so heights going to be an issue or I would pull the box out.
Also I’m planning on a suspension refurbish and chassis tidy up at the same time. Mot’s due in June so I’ll probably just take it off the road then, health permitting
As usual, all advice welcome
 
  
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2938


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did mine when I had my gearbox out. I did it all on my back on the drive with the car on axle stands.

I cut the old pipe off in segments and then bent new kunifer pipe up to match.

It was a bit of a pain getting it in around all the other pipes and stuff under there, had to straighten and rebend in a few places to get it in.

The brake pipe must go in first when they build them on a production line.

I would not like to try but I hear a few indies can replace the line with gearbox in, I have heard of them doing it with OE steel and kunifer.

So yes it is possible but rather you than me.

I would not like the idea of such a long flexible line.
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6799
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The brake pipes on these rot out under the L shaped panel and in the brackets .

N/S/R is easy enough to change but the O/S/R goes over the gearbox .

If you are replaceing it with the Porsche pre made pipe then to be honest its engine out , coolant pipe plus all the other pipes dropped then replace .

If you dropping the engine then things like the AOS are a Must to replace .

I would also have a good look at the coolant pipes on the n/s chassis .. replace if needed .

If you are makeing your own pipe then just gearbox out and feed the brake pipe under the pipes .. all you are trying to achieve is to make sure the brake pipe is secure in the brackets and will not flap around possibly rubbing through over time .

You can try to do this with the gearbox in situe .. if the pipe is secure then fine .. not easy though .

You also have the option of a cut and join .. you basically cut the pipe to remove the corroded parts , flare the end and fit a joiner .

Ive done all three depending on what the customer can afford , as long as the pipe is secure and leak free then the job is a good un .
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 471



PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasz, your not filling me with confidence. A friend of mine has a ramp I could use but I didn’t want to take the gearbox out until I was going to do the clutch and rms. unsure whether I’ll touch the ims bearing. Obviously you can get the box out on axle stands but I’m sure that’s not handy.
I was going with a plan to strip the front of the car to tidy up anything needing doing. Bushes etc along with lowering springs and just stick springs in the back. Use the car for a while and then do the rear tidy up and lastly, the clutch work etc.
It looks like a simply thing like the brake pipes might dictate a full going over as I only plan on working on each area once.
I’ve been out of the mechanical game for a while, would a flexi used over the box even be legal?
 
  
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 471



PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deMort wrote:
The brake pipes on these rot out under the L shaped panel and in the brackets .

N/S/R is easy enough to change but the O/S/R goes over the gearbox .

If you are replaceing it with the Porsche pre made pipe then to be honest its engine out , coolant pipe plus all the other pipes dropped then replace .

If you dropping the engine then things like the AOS are a Must to replace .

I would also have a good look at the coolant pipes on the n/s chassis .. replace if needed .

If you are makeing your own pipe then just gearbox out and feed the brake pipe under the pipes .. all you are trying to achieve is to make sure the brake pipe is secure in the brackets and will not flap around possibly rubbing through over time .

You can try to do this with the gearbox in situe .. if the pipe is secure then fine .. not easy though .

You also have the option of a cut and join .. you basically cut the pipe to remove the corroded parts , flare the end and fit a joiner .

Ive done all three depending on what the customer can afford , as long as the pipe is secure and leak free then the job is a good un .


That looks a bit more promising Demort. I haven’t had a proper look yet so I’m just doing the homework. I’m possibly going in for back surgery in the next few months. Will know better at the end of the month. If this is the case, I’ll just leave all alone and look at it when I’m fit. The cars inside so won’t come to any harm
 
  
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6799
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You cant use flexi .. it wont fit in the brackets .. and you need it to be secure .. Mot failure if nothing else but the main reason is a pipe that can move will wear either by flexing or rubbing on something .

Gearbox removal on a ramp is pretty straight forward and gives you full access to run a new pipe , although not a pre shaped one
.

That is your best option .

Gearbox removal on your back on axle stands is not a pleasent job .

IMS .. you just need to check for play .. if none then flip off the black plastic cover and leave well alone .
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 471



PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll just have to wait until I can get a proper look but from what I’ve seen, they’re not good. Time will tell.
I suppose ya can’t buy a sports car and not have the odd ball ache. Rolling Eyes
 
  
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ballcock
Sepang


Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2967
Location: Dublin

1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mechanic flagged some rotten brake pipe work recently, it’s going in to get this done next week during the service. They’ve said the same as DM , it’s the corner L shaped areas that are shot.
They’re hopeful that they can cut and flare ... I’ll let you know how they get on Ned.
_________________
'96 Iris C2 vario manual coupe, Koni FZD's/M033's RSR's and HID's.
‘98 Ocean blue 996 C2 Tip pressed into daily service.

Ex '83 W460 LWB G Wagen updated with OM602 engine and 6 speed 'box
Ex. '99 996 C2 manual coupe.
 
  
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gilessav
Monza


Joined: 04 Jan 2013
Posts: 240
Location: Oxford UK


PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with the job, being pretty poor with the spanners I left this to my Indie.

Rear pipes were replaced as engine and g/b had to come out 2 years ago, had all the front ones replaced in 2018 and was something like 12hrs+ labour and a lot of swearing by the indie. All the pipes were poor and on the C4S they seems to weave all over the place at the front apparently.....

hopefully they will now last another 14+ years.....

you're a braver man than I on these things so hope it all goes smoothly

cheers.
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Ghianightmare
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 330
Location: Dublin


PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I replaced sections of my brake pipes - cutting out the old sections and getting new sections spliced in. The problem with replacing the entire length is that (forgive me if someone has already said this but I am speed reading) there is an aluminum block section half way down the passenger side that both the rear sections of pipe are connected to. It is very usual that the pipes don’t come out of this easily due to pipes being steel and block being aluminum. It costs circa £100.

There is a similar block under the front passenger headlight where the front section of the rear pipe originates and suffers same issue.

Mine were corroded at the wheel arch to sill bend and so just had those sections replaced. Much more cost effective.

Something for you to consider.
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Milo72
Monza


Joined: 19 Sep 2018
Posts: 192
Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably saying what everyone else has, but have the same issue right now with mine.

I’ve a 997 tip and the indy said it was definitely an engine drop to get the pipe out, being a tip it is at least 12 hours of Labour. Slightly annoying when the corroded part isn’t actually over the engine but on the left near side.

My solution will be to remove the corroded part and join it for now, but have a medium term plan to have it done properly and have the engine dropped and also replace the over engine coolant pipe at the same time.

I think I read this in the 996 forum. my Indy said that had I got a manual 996 they could lower the engine and box slightly and put a flexi hose over the top.

Annoying that a small pipe will cost so much to resolve.
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 471



PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone for the pointers.

I’m a mechanic by trade but haven’t worked at it for a living for 20 odd years.
Still can figure my way round things. My biggest problem atm is that I’m possibly going to have surgery on by back for a disc problem. Long story short I have sciatica. Pains not so bad now but I developed foot drop. Basically I lost a lot of power and movement in my left foot. It’s a lot better than it was but this is the basis for surgery and I should know at the end of the month if it’s gona happen.
If it does, I’m out of action (and money) for a while.
If not, I’ll get stuck in at mot time in June and just leave the car in the garage till I get through it.
But I need to be working to pay for parts. I’m just going to gather up all that I think I need. The list so far is bushes, brake pipes and so on.

Milo. It’s that idea of getting a flexi over the top that interests me. I’d like to more about that.
 
  
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ballcock
Sepang


Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2967
Location: Dublin

1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ned, sounds painful ... and a pain! Sorry for your troubles man, I hope it all gets sorted quickly and easily.
_________________
'96 Iris C2 vario manual coupe, Koni FZD's/M033's RSR's and HID's.
‘98 Ocean blue 996 C2 Tip pressed into daily service.

Ex '83 W460 LWB G Wagen updated with OM602 engine and 6 speed 'box
Ex. '99 996 C2 manual coupe.
 
  
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 471



PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks ballcock. Not bad shape atm but put in a bad 6 months last year. Bought the car a few months back and I’ve only been able to get out a few times, between kids and not being fit to. But at least I have it there,bought and paid for so if it has to ly for a while it’s not the end of the world
It’s like the lottery add “there’s nicer problems to have” Very Happy
 
  
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Milo72
Monza


Joined: 19 Sep 2018
Posts: 192
Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NedHan79 wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the pointers.

I’m a mechanic by trade but haven’t worked at it for a living for 20 odd years.
Still can figure my way round things. My biggest problem atm is that I’m possibly going to have surgery on by back for a disc problem. Long story short I have sciatica. Pains not so bad now but I developed foot drop. Basically I lost a lot of power and movement in my left foot. It’s a lot better than it was but this is the basis for surgery and I should know at the end of the month if it’s gona happen.
If it does, I’m out of action (and money) for a while.
If not, I’ll get stuck in at mot time in June and just leave the car in the garage till I get through it.
But I need to be working to pay for parts. I’m just going to gather up all that I think I need. The list so far is bushes, brake pipes and so on.

Milo. It’s that idea of getting a flexi over the top that interests me. I’d like to more about that.


Hi Ned - it was a mechanic at RPM that told me about the flexi pipe over the top. I’ll be honest once he told me that becuse I had a tip it wouldn’t work I didn’t pay a lot more notice. They are a great bunch there, i’m sure they can advise on it at the very least. https://rpmtechnik.co.uk
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 471



PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks milo thumbsup
 
  
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2938


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK you should check my thread linked in my sig: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=124928

The only time I served as a mechanic was under my dad's watch as a kid (a time served engineer) and I managed just fine on my back on axle stands.

I dropped the gearbox, flywheel, locked the cams and checked / re-sealed the IMS bearing, swapped the AOS and replaced the brake pipe.

My brake pipe had been spliced under the cover previously as DeMort described. In the hidden clips above the gearbox the old steel was pretty grotty so inspect it well if you are considering that.

I can imagine it would be possible to get a brake line in without dropping the box, but very fiddly, and likely not exactly matching the original route - probably easier with knifer as you can bend it more easily in place. I wanted to match the original to make sure it wasn't going to rub.

Not a hard job just really frustrating and fiddly I image......easy to drop the engine and gearbox a few inches I think for better access.

**** Also check the brake line that runs along the front in front of the steering rack. Mine was well grotty.

I have done all the old steel brake lines and flexi lines on my car.

I would not want a long flexi line, it would lead to that brake being slightly less efficient and move around a lot / risk rubbing through.
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 471



PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks wasz. I’ll get a look when I get time this evening.
Just one question, I see AOS mentioned a lot. What is this?
 
  
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crash7
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 632



PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a flexible kit available, but I cant remember where I saw it!

Hel will make custom brake hoses for you if you decide to go the flexible route.
 
  
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2938


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NedHan79 wrote:
Thanks wasz. I’ll get a look when I get time this evening.
Just one question, I see AOS mentioned a lot. What is this?


Its the bane of my life. Seriously.
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Last edited by wasz on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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