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RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 183



PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:16 pm    Post subject: How fly can my flywheel be? Reply with quote

Hey guys, girls.
Hope you are all well.

So i'm toying with the idea of a new trans set up. ( not planning any drag clothes).

Spoke with a few indies and consensus is looking good for a Lightweight Fly wheel set up.

So far have been quoted from cheapest which is the TTV, mid rage Aasco to priciest being the Carpgraphic.

Looking to pair this up with an upgraded clutch kit, possibly sprung?

and possibly a new fork to?

Anyone done this before or have any advise?

Best regards
Shah.
 
  
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6178
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pop Corn

i have my own views on doing away with a duel mass flywheel and fitting a light weight one but im no expert here so i would like to see the opinions of people with more experience of these before i say anything Smile
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Chris_in_the_UK
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Joined: 19 Mar 2014
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Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been discussed a few times.

One thread here:-

http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1179125&sid=e84417dc3fce13372570c82735dd8542
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RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 183



PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deMort wrote:
Pop Corn

i have my own views on doing away with a duel mass flywheel and fitting a light weight one but im no expert here so i would like to see the opinions of people with more experience of these before i say anything Smile


I look forward to hearing your thoughts bud.
 
  
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RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 183



PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris_in_the_UK wrote:
Been discussed a few times.

One thread here:-

http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1179125&sid=e84417dc3fce13372570c82735dd8542


Hey Chris.

I did read that thread. It ultimately culminated in the OP not opting for the lwfw.

Member Harv has made some great posts which has allowed me to source the TTV wheel at a decent price.

TTV 540.
Aasco 630
Cargraphic over 1k.

However.. looking from the picture it seems that aasco make the cargraphic unit and brand it for them.

But that's just a hunch.
 
  
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6178
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive just read that tread as ive not seen it before .. i think the comment from poppopbangbang requires reading a few times ...

Pop Corn
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RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 183



PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep agreed. There is definitely a case against the lwfw.

However on the flipside it's not as if the dmfw doesnt fail and take the crank with it.

Highlighted is ELA's thread.

So healthy discussion is what we are after.

So far both responses on this thread have been against.

Dont know
 
  
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not against as such .. im not a "mod " person .. i fit Porsche parts so have very little experience of this .. but i do know what ive seen over the years so i prefer to wait till the experienced people have their say Smile

I will always warn against possible problems though reguardless of what people say .. its my job Very Happy

Also bear in mind .. that post was a 996 .. not a 997 .

I think to be fair .. Ken at 9 Excillence would be a good person to chat to .. if anyone knows whats best then it would be him .
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RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 183



PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh ok.

Does not fill me with great confidence bud lol.

My mantra was always. If u replace it. Do like for like or better. But in this instance I really am not sure if it's better. Especially as ur not exactly endorsing it either.

I spoke with both rpm and Parr motorsport, both practically convinced me to go for it.

I did try to call ne but they just have been busy. Will try again on Monday.

Thanks for all the input so far. Greatly appreciated.
 
  
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2869


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The crank isn't terribly well supported at the flywheel end on these engines, no chance I would fit one.
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crash7
Montreal


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 572



PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As already mentioned the crank is not particularly well support so removing over 6kg from the end of it has to be a benefit, this was the view of Hartech & 9E when I spoke to them.

Lots of opinion and scare mongering out there, but not a great deal of fact from those that have actually fitted them.

In an ideal world you need to dynamically balance the flywheel with the crank, which means removing said crank from the engine, however others have fitted without doing this without issue, there are a few threads with first hand feedback, most of the scare mongering seems to come from the US and Rennlist.

I have decided to fit one, mine will be balanced to the crank as it’s being done as part of an engine build.

You will also need a sprung clutch.
 
  
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RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 183



PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
As already mentioned the crank is not particularly well support so removing over 6kg from the end of it has to be a benefit, this was the view of Hartech & 9E when I spoke to them.

Lots of opinion and scare mongering out there, but not a great deal of fact from those that have actually fitted them.

In an ideal world you need to dynamically balance the flywheel with the crank, which means removing said crank from the engine, however others have fitted without doing this without issue, there are a few threads with first hand feedback, most of the scare mongering seems to come from the US and Rennlist.

I have decided to fit one, mine will be balanced to the crank as it’s being done as part of an engine build.

You will also need a sprung clutch.


In that respect. You are in the best possible position as you can balance up everything perfectly.

Can I ask which fly wheel did you go for? Also was your spring clutch part of an upgrade kit, including plate and bearing? Which did you opt for? Organic?

Also have u opted to replace the fork too?
 
  
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Chris_in_the_UK
Estoril


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 3552
Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deMort wrote:

I think to be fair .. Ken at 9 Excillence would be a good person to chat to .. if anyone knows whats best then it would be him .


0e's website suggests they are happy to fit to any Mezger derivative.
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FRP
Albert Park


Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 1534
Location: Middlesex


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

9e fitted my LWFW to the 996 turbo BEAST and all good. well over 8000 miles and no issues....call Ken i woudl say
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RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 183



PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I had a dream last night.

I was some kind of storage facility come secret govt building. Shiny white floors and white ceiling with bright led lights.

I was standing there alone and as far as I could see there were shelved filled with Dual Mass Fly Wheels. I started walking down this isle after some time I could see a sign hanging from the ceiling "Light weight fly wheels this way". So I started running towards the sign, but it wasnt getting any closer. Then the shelves filled with dmfw began closing in like some kind of Indian Jones scene.

Then I woke up in a cold sweat.
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8146
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideally if using a LWFW on an M96 you should get the crankshaft balanced with it, obviously that requires an engine tear down.

My flywheel (DMF) became imbalanced and snapped the crankshaft in two, yes it is heavier but the failure is not necessarily due to weight but more the harmony between the two parts.
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RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 183



PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I spoke with Ken today.

Lovely chap. Long story short, if would happily fit a lwfw for me. However if it were him he would not fit one on a 7.1 c2s.

So that leaves me with:

PARR Motorsport yes
RPM yes
Ne no
Demort no.

and forum members pretty even split too.
 
  
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6178
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PARR Motorsport yes ... its work for them
RPM yes ... its work for them
Ne no
Demort no. .. ive seen the results when it doesnt go to plan but im not a yes or a no ... its your choice and dare i say .. gamble .

Ken .. he sells them .. he has an interest in selling you one .. he said no he wouldn,t do it if it was his choice ...

For me that speaks volumns.


Ken ...
Thumb
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996ttalot
Approved Trader


Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 1442
Location: Horley Gatwick


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RXP. wrote:
So, I spoke with Ken today.

Lovely chap. Long story short, if would happily fit a lwfw for me. However if it were him he would not fit one on a 7.1 c2s.

So that leaves me with:

PARR Motorsport yes
RPM yes
Ne no
Demort no.

and forum members pretty even split too.


Good to talk to you today.

I probably should explain in a little more detail my reasons for that view.

We have on many variants over the years fitted LWF from pre 89 to 997 onwards including many GT4s and so on.

As you may know we do have a performance outlook as well as normal routine work and servicing etc. We use a lot of datalogging rather than making the assumption of fitting and assuming all is well.

There are certain models which respond well to LWF and some that don't. And that statement is not in the sense that one works better than on another model, but more on the effect of the engine and power.

I won't give out full details but suffice to say
- don't assume because the LWF looks nice and shiny and made by a CNC process that it is 100% perfect and balanced.
- don't assume that the LWF is not affecting your engine performance just because you don't see check engine lights (CEL) on the dash
- don't assume that it is not retarding ignition without you knowing it

As some may know, misfires trigger a CEL when they exceed a certain threshold in a certain timeframe. We have seen (in a control test) a DMF giving no misfire counters against LWF giving misfire counters. The design of the LWF is sometimes at higher RPM the pickup is different.

As also stated certain engines are stronger than others. We have LWF on 1000+hp turbo cars, but the whole assembly is perfectly balanced before installation.

We recently finished a couple of custom pre 89 engines that we put onto full Motec control and on one of those we were able to trace issues down to the LWF. When we pulled that and checked, despite it being new, the LWF was not 100% true. When this was corrected, issues went away.

Harmonics do play a part. Without going into a long story, engine mounts for example whilst giving improved handling, can also cause power reduction (minor) due to knock control. If you think of the knock sensors on either bank, they are looking for noise. You create more noise, the ECU pulls back power until it no longer senses knock. We are not talking huge amounts but when you build two cars identicial and one just seems to that that little extra and you try and find why, amazingly it was engine mounts being semi solid that caused the issue.

AASCO are the best we have used as an FYI and many just rebrand their product.

I just wouldn't personally do it on NA 996/997 engines - GT3 etc is fine. The only time we have on those particular models is when building some track day engines and then the whole assmebly was balanced.

Ken
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rocco996
Monza


Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 205
Location: South Wales


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Flywheel Reply with quote

RPM fitted mine 15k ago, had a standard clutch fitted as I was a bit worried about commuting with an on/off clutch, I love the chatter from the engine and the way it revs, and I have had no problems with it. Would I do it again, yes.
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