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Marky911
Indianapolis


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2351



PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asterix_the_gaul wrote:
Yes, I don't know how long it will probably take a little while, but tyres are not cheap so probably better to spend the money on correcting the excessive rear camber than buying new tyres every few thousand miles

Is that kind of negative camber a real tyre eater or are we getting worried over nothing? Question


Annoying eh Asterix?

Exactly the same boat as me then. Brand new rear arms just fitted so now we need new adjustable ones and pay for another alignment.
I'm not going for another alignment until I know it'll be the last one for at least a year. frustrated

You don't really want more than -1.5 degrees on a road car and even that's a bit pointy.
I'm at -2.2 all round so want to get some off.
I couldn't say in mileage terms how quick it will wear your tyres but you will be throwing them away with bald inners and perfect outers if you do lots of dual carriageway driving and leave things as they are.

Definitely worth the bit of expense to get it right.
I'll be aiming for -0.8 to -1.2 degrees. I'll basically be copying Craig's CG settings and will then hopefully pay them a visit properly at some point.
 
  
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asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1262
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I'm feeling stupid, had I paid attention I would have got m030 springs or adjustable arms To start with, I think with hindsight m030 springs would have been the right thing.
I think I saw a post where somebody got vogtland springs and they were less of a drop than Eibach, more than m030?
_________________
1992 944 S2 Cabriolet, Cobalt Blue/Classic grey -gone!
1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
 
  
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asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1262
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No just checked that, they were -30mm as well
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1992 944 S2 Cabriolet, Cobalt Blue/Classic grey -gone!
1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
 
  
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Marky911
Indianapolis


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2351



PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you get the adjustable toe links then you're free to try any suspension you feel like in future and you know you'll always be able to get it all into spec.

I didn't realise the importance of them or I'd have bought them sooner.
I'm going to sort mine by spring time. Luckily there's no rush as it's a fair weather car.
 
  
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asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1262
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's true for the rears, but we will nit still have the same issue with the fronts having too much neg camber?
_________________
1992 944 S2 Cabriolet, Cobalt Blue/Classic grey -gone!
1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
 
  
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911munKy
Montreal


Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 520



PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problems with the front and too much negative camber, you will be able to get them to standard+ spec. An issue arises when you want much MORE negative camber than standard and in that case you will need eccentric bushes etc.

I haven’t fitted my rear adjustable toe arms yet as I have been waiting for the spring perch spacers I had machined to be delivered, they will give me back the standard front/rear rake as my car now sits too low at the rear.
I did consider getting a geo on the OE spec toe arms once the spacers are fitted as the height gain may allow the camber to be adjusted to within X74 tolerance and return the adjustable arms I purchased. The problem is that if it doesn’t I've wasted another £100 on alignment so I think I’ll just fit the £215 arms anyway and not take the risk. I can always sell my low mileage arms to partly offset the cost and the new ones look sexy anyway Boogie

I probably won’t get It sorted before Xmas now but will update when I have.
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jezgreen911
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 406
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

911munKy wrote:
No problems with the front and too much negative camber, you will be able to get them to standard+ spec. An issue arises when you want much MORE negative camber than standard and in that case you will need eccentric bushes etc.

I haven’t fitted my rear adjustable toe arms yet as I have been waiting for the spring perch spacers I had machined to be delivered, they will give me back the standard front/rear rake as my car now sits too low at the rear.
I did consider getting a geo on the OE spec toe arms once the spacers are fitted as the height gain may allow the camber to be adjusted to within X74 tolerance and return the adjustable arms I purchased. The problem is that if it doesn’t I've wasted another £100 on alignment so I think I’ll just fit the £215 arms anyway and not take the risk. I can always sell my low mileage arms to partly offset the cost and the new ones look sexy anyway Boogie

I probably won’t get It sorted before Xmas now but will update when I have.


What size have you gone for with the perch spacers? prior to fitting my Eibach springs I had read about some guys in the states having some rear ride height issues, I'm not sure if mine being a facelift car or the wheel/tyre combo played a part but I'm happy with mine, I will be adding adjustable tie rods to help correct the rear camber though Thumb
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911munKy
Montreal


Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 520



PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine is noticeably lower than yours in the rear so I’ve had some 10mm perch spacers made up to get the rake back. At the moment I can just about squeeze a one finger between arch and tyre (doesn’t rub though with only me in the car despite 15mm wheel spacers although I have rolled the arches) and even with a 10mm rear height increase I will still be 4mm below the X74 datum.
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Dammit
Watkins Glen


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2152



PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asterix_the_gaul wrote:
oh, well that makes me feel better, I believe from the posts above the Eibach springs give you a lower ride height than X74 and slightly lower than gt3 hence the problem comes down to too low so therefore needing the adjustable arms to correct the camber or taller springs/adjustable coilovers to correct ride height so the camber sorts itself out. Or sod it and live with it.


This makes more sense to me - I talked to Centre-G about dropping my car to GT3 height, and they said that X74 was the lowest that a car could go with stock arms etc without encountering camber issues.

So - if the Eibach's are dropping you to GT3, it all lines up.
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911munKy
Montreal


Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 520



PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dammit wrote:

So - if the Eibach's are dropping you to GT3, it all lines up.


Or not as the case may be hence the need for adjustable arms!
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 453



PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911munKy wrote:
Dammit wrote:

So - if the Eibach's are dropping you to GT3, it all lines up.


Or not as the case may be hence the need for adjustable arms!


I’m glad you said that cause I was scratching the head there Laughing
 
  
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asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1262
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the car back this morning, had a look at the springs which came off it: they were h&r springs, so no surprise that the ride height is virtually unchanged, the rear camber looks better but it's 2deg20 both sides at the rear. The front camber they could get in x74 spec but increased the front camber to match the rear so it doesn't wildly understeer. The important thing is the toe front and rear is dead on spec so it drives well if a bit pointy. I can live with the camber, it's not a tyre eater I'm told, it's more if the toe is out it rags the tyres aparantly.

Advice was that adjustable arms might work, but may need the adjustable coffin arms too.

Taller springs like m030 will definitely correct the issue

Spring perch spacers would also work for the same reason as long as they were big enough to bump up the springs to enough over gt3 height.

I like the ride on the Eibach springs and Koni shocks so might go for spring spacers eventually, could they be made in 2 parts so they could be fitted without having to remove the shocks just compress the springs?
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1992 944 S2 Cabriolet, Cobalt Blue/Classic grey -gone!
1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
 
  
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coullstar
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1475
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good reading this as its probably my next big move on suspension so all your guys work means I can get right stuff up front.

What are you doing with your H&R springs and what condition are they in as I would be interested in them?
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asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1262
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll pm you a picture.
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1992 944 S2 Cabriolet, Cobalt Blue/Classic grey -gone!
1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
 
  
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Jamesx19
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 437
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That last post of your's put paid to a thought I had then Asterix.

I was going to suggest replacing the Eibach springs with the H&R. I have them fitted to my 1998 C2. Standard Meyle control arms and track control arms with no issues. Rear height measured at 133mm.

Very odd.

I've had 3 996.1's. The first was fitted with oldish H&R springs and was very low. The second had MO30 (Probably originals) and was almost as low.

Current had MO30 and seemed quite high, like standard height. I replaced all the suspension control arms etc and dampers and changed to H&R -30mm and its come down to about where the last MO30 car was.....

Is there some variation on damper spring perch heights going on rather than spring fitted lengths? Might be worth checking part no's between your models and lighter variants maybe?

Sorry not much help.
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coullstar
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1475
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is making me think about coilovers more and more if there is so much variation in ride heights Laughing
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911munKy
Montreal


Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 520



PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To my mind if you are going to fit coilovers then you really need to fit a quality set as the cheaper end of the market won't necessarily offer you a performance increase over standard and may make the handling worse or degrade quicker in the British weather.

Because they are so adjustable you need to get them professionally set up which is going to cost considerably more than a £100 alignment and a company like CG will highlight any further wear in your suspension components so it's likely you may need to buy some addition arms/bushes as there is no point doing half a job. Add in corner balancing etc/extra labour and you could easily spend £5k just because you wanted a slightly lower ride height.
You will have a lovely handling car which is probably never going to be raced around a track but very empty pockets when you could have achieved what most want for about £550 (springs/adjustable arms/spacers & geo) if your dampers are still good and you can change springs yourself.
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asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1262
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, all springs can sag over time, I had imagined that the springs were m030 as they were black and looked lower in the rear hence maybe sagged but when the brand new -30mm springs fitted had exactly the same drop I was a bit gutted. Should have jacked up and examined them, would have seen h&r before blindly buying parts

Lowered several cars with Eibach springs and always been a success, never too low, usually higher than other previous lowering springs fitted so thought it would be a safe bet. They work alright as is but I think a 10-15mm spring perch spacer platform on the rears would probably have been enough on the 996 to eliminate the issues we have encountered with camber when lowering with -30mm springs

plus It's really too low at the rear from a practical point of view, scraping on stuff in dips

Otherwise get an m030 kit or go ohlins for full adjustability

My coffin arms were not in good shape but they appeared to be the originals so had done 19 years service! Wink Dont know Cop
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1995 993 C2 Cabriolet, Midnight Blue/Marble grey -gone!
1999 996 C2 Coupe, Ocean Blue/Graphite grey
2002 E46 M3 Cabriolet, Laguna seca blue/LSB
 
  
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coullstar
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1475
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

911munKy wrote:
To my mind if you are going to fit coilovers then you really need to fit a quality set as the cheaper end of the market won't necessarily offer you a performance increase over standard and may make the handling worse or degrade quicker in the British weather.

Because they are so adjustable you need to get them professionally set up which is going to cost considerably more than a £100 alignment and a company like CG will highlight any further wear in your suspension components so it's likely you may need to buy some addition arms/bushes as there is no point doing half a job. Add in corner balancing etc/extra labour and you could easily spend £5k just because you wanted a slightly lower ride height.
You will have a lovely handling car which is probably never going to be raced around a track but very empty pockets when you could have achieved what most want for about £550 (springs/adjustable arms/spacers & geo) if your dampers are still good and you can change springs yourself.


Totally agree but I always change out dampers if Im changing out to lower springs unless I know the current dampers are almost new. I also agree on the budget coilovers remark, I think it depends on a lot of other things as well. Im planning on doing all coffins arms, top mounts and tuning forks when I do the suspension so it looks like adjustable arms is good as well. All this in top of suspension is as you say a big factor but then I do plan on using the car more next year when I sell one of my other cars.

asterix_the_gaul I didn't get a PM, did your old springs sit tail down?
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Toml
Trainee


Joined: 05 Mar 2016
Posts: 52
Location: Cambridge


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had my Carrera 2 at Center Gravity in January this year for their health check. I always felt my car was nervous but since I'd never owned a 911 before, I couldn't tell whether it was normal behaviour.

The car was on standard dampers and H&R springs.

It measured 113 mm at the front and 124 mm at the rear.

-31' and -40' camber at the front
-1 deg 51' and -1 deg 59' camber at the rear
+0.02 left toe and +0.01 right toe at the rear.

No wonder it felt nervous! The toe at the rear becomes negative as soon as you accelerate. Additionally the adjustment was at max i.e. more positive toe could not be applied.

I'm currently having new Koni Special Active dampers and Eibach springs fitted and I was hoping the H&Rs had sagged and the rear would be lifted slightly from 124 mm such that some more toe could be applied. After reading this thread it seems likely it's going to get worse because the Eibachs are lower than H&Rs!

Will soon see once the parts are fitted and the car is on the alignment rig.
 
  
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