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a1butch
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Joined: 06 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Buying high(er) mileage cars +common issues Reply with quote

Hi all - i'm lurking in the 997 forums again as I am contemplating a daily driver.
I have a budget around 20k, based on the current market, brings me into private sales of early cars 2004-5 with (typically) higher mileage (80k+).

What sort of maintenance expectations outside of the normal schedules should I have at this level? are there commons failures (outside of engine/bore scope inspections) at this age and mileage that I should look out for?
This should help me narrow down any candidates before I hone into something I like and eventually pay for an inspection.

thanks in advance.
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14625
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As cars get older all mechanical items will require replacement.

Unfortunately the only accurate check list for older and/or high mileage cars would need to include everything as some parts will have already been replaced.

So much depends also on the type of use - ( eg. many high mileage cars will have clocked up motorway miles so some parts won't be as worn as those that have been use for more general use) and how well the car has been maintained during its life. Many high mileage cars far better service histories showing more regular oil changes etc than low mileage cars.

It's a simple fact (in the UK especially) that high mileage cars are worth considerably less than average mileage and low mileage cars regardless of their type of use and maintenance records.

If your budget is tight you may well find a real bargain.

Good Luck Thumb
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99pFlake
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there's anything wrong with buying a high miler as long as it's got a big wodge of paperwork with it. If I see the previous owner has owned it for several years and hasn't skimped on the maintenance then I'd feel a lot happier about it.
 
  
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deMort
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Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive been helping a friend of mine look for a late 996 or an early 997 .. to be honest at £20k which is also his budget the 997 cars have all needed a fair bit of work done to get them back upto spec.

Basically you are really at the bottom end of the 997 .

To give you an idea though on what ive seen with my friends possible buys ..

Shocks corroded , top mounts worn.
Coffin arm bushes split
Diag arms knocking
Oil leaks .. usually minor
brakes corroded.
Cross over pipes .. be aware this is £1100 - £1200 and thats IF the pipes all come out .. im currently dropping an engine for all coolant pipes and trust me i started at the front but all corroded and nothing has come appart in one piece ...

To be fair this is a coastal car though . they suffer more .

Exhaust silencer seams splitting .. flange bolts , clamps all heavily corroded .

Thats just some of the normal issues im afraid.

For me i would say look at a late 996 .. idealy a 996 C4s .. or increase the budget a bit as unless you get lucky you will be buying a car that needs a fair bit spent on it to bring it back to life .
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a1butch
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the replies.

I'm definitely not discounting 996 C4S but 20k seems to be lower on the budget there based on my research.
I do have one 997 trade prospect in mind that seems to be 2-3k lower than trade retail (based on feedback from my dealer contact) so i'm investigating more there.
Deciding whether OPC inspection is worth the money or using a specialist mechanic or PPI nearer the south east London/Kent areas.
 
  
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a1butch
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Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Posts: 30



PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the replies.

I'm definitely not discounting 996 C4S but 20k seems to be lower on the budget there based on my research.
I do have one 997 trade prospect in mind that seems to be 2-3k lower than trade retail (based on feedback from my dealer contact) so i'm investigating more there.
Deciding whether OPC inspection is worth the money or using a specialist mechanic or PPI nearer the south east London/Kent areas.
 
  
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RUDDY
Trainee


Joined: 12 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the only thing lower mileage reflects on a 997 is a higher asking price.

My car has just rolled around to 40k miles and I am in the middle of replacing all four discs and associated pipework, all 4 coffin arms, track control arms, ARB bushes and mounts, all the drop links, rebuilding all four calipers and all new Porsche fasteners.

I’ve had all the exhaust hardware changed which helped when it came to swapping the manifolds and system

I had a precautionary clutch change at 38k miles as it was feeling heavy , IMS seal and RMS, three oil and filter changes in 1500 miles, I have a good supplier !

I’ve done all the coil packs, plugs and filters

I have identified my rear cooling pipes will need doing, treated for now as car is SORN until next April, as stated its engine out which normally I would do myself but for various reasons I cant do it at the moment, its a job I have been quoted £1200 to do.

I’m pulling the front struts shortly to replace the top mounts and washers, have the strut bodies blasted and painted.

Thats at 40k miles, some is for vanity purposes, some is pre-emptive and some work was required, I’m also happy to do the spannering work.

I think what I am saying is higher mileage may not necessarily mean worn out as lots of parts may already have been replaced.

As a contrast my wifes 986 has 105k miles, I dont look under it, we get in it and drive it, its never let us down once, my mrs drives it everyday even in the snow last winter, uses no oil or water and took us to Salzburg and back in summer.

All the best
 
  
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Robertb
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Joined: 01 Sep 2003
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Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key is finding a high miles car that's had the work done... as shown by Ruddy above, a lot of maintenance is condition/time, not mileage based.

I'm a big fan of high miles cars, and I own two (my 4S has done 116k on its original engine, IMS bearing)... they tend to have been serviced more relative to a same age low miles car, more of their running is warm and typically low-stress driving at a cruise, more problems will have come to light and hopefully been sorted, and all for a relative bargain price as buyers have an obsession with a low mileage number PROVIDED you don't have to shell out a load of cash putting things right...

Obviously it will be a high miles car, so expect it to fetch comparatively less when you come to sell.

Other things to watch for other than already stated- paint corrosion, underbody corrosion (as it will likely have been used all year round, more stone chips to rust etc). Trim damage (particularly on 997s- 'melting' buttons). Chipped windscreen, headlights.

As well as a borescope, if I had my time again I would want an oil sample for analysis- may give an early steer on bearing wear etc.
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RichardKS
Monza


Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Posts: 157



PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW my '05 Carrera S is coming up to 80k miles.

New Eibach springs, top mounts, frt and rr coffins, good Michelin tyres, complete set of coolant pipes, newish rads and condensers, new air -con compressor and pipes, new tandem pump, water pump and loads more.

She's not for sale, but if she was my asking price would be backed up by all the invoices.
 
  
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a1butch
Newbie


Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Posts: 30



PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did Porsche make any subtle updates through the 997.1 years?
 
  
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Jackzi
Trainee


Joined: 30 Aug 2015
Posts: 61
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can tell you from personal experience (my budget is the same) that you may struggle to find good cars that don't need things doing.

I've just done my fourth Pre Purchase Inspection and have had to walk away from that car as well.

From what I have seen, corrosion is a major issue. This includes brake pipes, coolant pipes, shock absorbers, chassis legs and brake discs. And (apart from the brakes, comparatively speaking) this will all cost you quite a bit of money.

From the cars I've looked at, the 997s seemed to suffer more from corrosion than the 996s, but it has a lot to do with whether the car was garaged, lived by the sea, etc.

Fortunately, these are things that can actually been seen fairly easily even if you're not mechanically gifted so long as you can get underneath the car.

The biggest 'subtle update' Porsche did with the 997.1 was change the IMS bearing for the 06 model year. You can find out whether a car has the updated, less failure prone IMS by comparing the engine number with data on here and elsewhere online. Just use the search.

Be aware though, that the newer IMS in 06 model year 997s is not as easily replaced as the one in the 996 and early 997 (it's basically the same part). In fact, I'm not sure you can replace it at all without splitting the engine.

There will be debate about this, but the newer IMS is apparently better.

All 997s can suffer from bore score. But one specialist put it to me this way: "less than 10% of my customers who drive 997s are on the forums." But it's on the forums you'll find the ones that scream the loudest about the engine issues.

Bore score isn't as sudden and catastrophic as IMS failure, and (if it was me) fit a low temp thermostat and use a slightly thicker oil and be happy.

The easiest way to spot bore score (if it's bad) is to examine the left tail pipe(s). If it's a lot sootier/blacker than the right one then it should be examined more closely. Also listen for ticking sounds from the driver's side of the engine (although these can be tappets sticking as well, or other issues.)

The good deMort (who's helped me out a great deal and to whom I am eternally grateful) also suggested that if you look at a car, make sure it's started in front of you from cold. If there's smoke from the exhaust, walk away.

The 997 you're considering in the South East doesn't happen to be a black one, does it?
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jwb1380
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Joined: 18 Oct 2017
Posts: 32
Location: Aberdeen


PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some good chat there. I'm more of a high miles guy, although I wouldn't describe 70k miles as super high. It's less than 7k/year. I don't mind sharing my car's history, it's a 2007 T4S with X51. It uses next to no oil, dropped one cube over 4,000miles this year on the dash check. Winter jobs are getting the wheels reburbished, just a bit of corrosion and few very minor scratches. Maybe also get the steering wheel leather recovered, but couldn't remove it last year.

In the last year I've put tyres on, fitted cruise and changed the box oil and engine oil. Not really things going wrong.

It's almost time to put it away for winter, road are already being gritted in Aberdeen, but will tax it one more month for those nice winter days.

That's me one year in and the 997 is epic fun, what a noise and brill looks. Best buy ever.

I think you're better buying older cars with high miles because they've been maintained.

JB
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99pFlake
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Joined: 24 Jun 2018
Posts: 28



PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The good deMort (who's helped me out a great deal and to whom I am eternally grateful) also suggested that if you look at a car, make sure it's started in front of you from cold. If there's smoke from the exhaust, walk away.


I thought even sound 911s sometimes do that as a result of oil sitting in the flat cylinder bores?
 
  
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deMort
Zolder


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 5341
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

99pFlake wrote:
Quote:
The good deMort (who's helped me out a great deal and to whom I am eternally grateful) also suggested that if you look at a car, make sure it's started in front of you from cold. If there's smoke from the exhaust, walk away.


I thought even sound 911s sometimes do that as a result of oil sitting in the flat cylinder bores?


A puff of smoke when started after over night stop is normal .. more than that isnt.

You also have to wonder if a car is warm when you go to look at it .. Why ?
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Grooster
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Joined: 24 May 2018
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Location: Preston, Lancashire


PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to jump in on this thread but I was just wondering if it is possible to contact OPC to get an itemised list of things that have been done to a Porsche over its life, obviously from OPC servicing.
I have a 2008 997.1 with 104k on. It has been under OPC warranty all its life (just ran out OCT 2018) as far as I know and has full OPC history.
It only came with the stamped up book and the last service report from January 2018, so I bought it with some degree of confidence.

It would just be interesting to get a little more of an in depth report in case I want to sell in the future and maybe interesting to know for potential Porsche buyers.

Thanks
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G2
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Joined: 26 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grooster wrote:
Sorry to jump in on this thread but I was just wondering if it is possible to contact OPC to get an itemised list of things that have been done to a Porsche over its life, obviously from OPC servicing.
I have a 2008 997.1 with 104k on. It has been under OPC warranty all its life (just ran out OCT 2018) as far as I know and has full OPC history.
It only came with the stamped up book and the last service report from January 2018, so I bought it with some degree of confidence.

It would just be interesting to get a little more of an in depth report in case I want to sell in the future and maybe interesting to know for potential Porsche buyers.

Thanks


Yes. Service departments are usually very helpful with this. Most will provide more detail if you pop in to speak to them instead of asking over phone. You should be able to get info on warranty work but not many will release detailed general non-warranty work as the invoices have the owners info on.

You might need to contact each OPC If the car has been serviced at a few. Not all are able to see each other’s records surprisingly.
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RUDDY
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Joined: 12 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe most will not issue information since the data protection law came into effect earlier this year although this can vary depending on who answers the phone.

I know my local OPC very well, I still had to sign a disclaimer allowing them permision to send me deals/offers to my email address !
 
  
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Magic919
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Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 869
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

99pFlake wrote:
Quote:
The good deMort (who's helped me out a great deal and to whom I am eternally grateful) also suggested that if you look at a car, make sure it's started in front of you from cold. If there's smoke from the exhaust, walk away.


I thought even sound 911s sometimes do that as a result of oil sitting in the flat cylinder bores?


I’m sure plenty of us have experienced the cloud of smoke. Parking across a gradient seems to help cause it. Certainly not terminal.
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a1butch
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In most cases with OPCs you would have to seek written confirmation from the previous owner to release any service records or data in their name. This is what I have found with Tonbridge.

What they did confirm for me over the phone is the car was serviced at their location between x and y years and verify mileage.

Of course you may find a friendly face who wavers from that view.
 
  
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MWalter
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Joined: 06 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackzi wrote:
The 997 you're considering in the South East doesn't happen to be a black one, does it?


Why would you say that? Do you have knowledge on a specific car?
 
  
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