tired ceramics?

NLW73 · 23 Aug 2018

pal looking at a C2S in Fareham and he sent me these pics of the ceramics on the front.

its a C2S and the ceramics were a factory option. looked after by brookspeed and opc history

he said they look very patchy and rough to touch which I was always told is a sure sign they have had it.

I said I would speak to the Oracles on here. not sure the dealer is keen on replacing or refurbing either!!

its a road car after all and do you really need ceramics? maybe push for new set of steels and pads all round?

G2 · 23 Aug 2018

What mileage has it done? I was told that they start to go black as they are nearing end of life, those look poor to my untrained eye. Apparently measuring them tells exactly how worn but I don't know the measure? sorry

maph · 23 Aug 2018

They are toast and they will be chewing through the pads. They can be refurbed by Rebrake.de for approx £1k each. I would be pushing for dealer to cover the cost for that.

Pads are spendy as well OPC charge £850ish to replace, I negotiated and had mine done for £650.

Once refurbished the pads will last at least 40k miles, probably a lot more. Discs will last 100k +.

Seems like a lot of money but worth it IMO.

maph · 23 Aug 2018

G2 said:
What mileage has it done? I was told that they start to go black as they are nearing end of life, those look poor to my untrained eye. Apparently measuring them tells exactly how worn but I don't know the measure? sorry

They have min thickness size marked on the bells but as I understand it best way to measure wear is to weigh them.

These however are knackered, they should be smooth to touch. If they are rough they are delaminating and you can see this is pretty advanced in the photos.

I certainly would not waste another set of pads on them.

What are the rears like?

Alex · 23 Aug 2018

I don't know much about ceramic discs but I've done a fair bit of work in the past with ceramic machined parts. They just look like they need a bit of action to me?? No cracks in the ceramic, just look like they haven't been used enough, but like I say, don't know enough about ceramic brake discs.

Skimming then up on a cylindrical grinder would IMHO bring them up like new, don't where people can offer £1k for such a job?? Should be more like £200. :dont know:

Gunscrossed · 23 Aug 2018

Is it an ex-PEC car?

maph · 23 Aug 2018

alex yates said:
I don't know much about ceramic discs but I've done a fair bit of work in the past with ceramic machined parts. They just look like they need a bit of action to me?? No cracks in the ceramic, just look like they haven't been used enough, but like I say, don't know enough about ceramic brake discs.

Skimming then up on a cylindrical grinder would IMHO bring them up like new, don't where people can offer £1k for such a job?? Should be more like £200. :dont know:

I am not sure if the latest PCCBs are a different compound (they are supposed to last even longer and be more resistant to tracking) but as I understand it the ones on the 997 have an extremely hard but quite thin wear surface. Once it goes the softer (darker) surface below comes off in small chunks, making the surface rough. Skimming will do nothing of value unfortunately.

To refurbish them, they are x-rayed to check for any damage, the ceramic material is hacked off and new ceramic material is applied. Pretty specialist stuff and inherently expensive.

Other option as the OP suggested is to remove and replace with steels, would be cheaper than refurbishing the ceramics but I would expect the car to be cheaper to reflect this (inc lack of originality if they were original fit). If going this route it would be worth switching the rears for steel to match and selling the rear ceramics if they are in good condition.

Alex · 23 Aug 2018

Well I can't see any small chunks missing :dont know:

maph · 24 Aug 2018

alex yates said:
Well I can't see any small chunks missing :dont know:

The bright silver parts of the disc are the original surface material. The dark areas (most of he disc) is where the surface material has been lost. But unlike steel it does not wear down evenly, once the surface material is comprimised they start losing material in small pieces of differing depths, hence why they become rough to touch.

You can see the circle wear indicator in the photos. This is a slightly softer material than the rest of the disc and is designed to go darker/ wear earlier than the rest of the disc.

I did a lot of research when I bought my S and it is pretty simple, if they are rough to touch there is material missing and they need refurbishing or replacing :thumb:

NLW73 · 24 Aug 2018

thanks Maph and you sure know your ceramics

yes rough to touch and it has that dark patch to show the wear is right down

they are shagged I would say and I would certainly warn him. maybe ask for steels all round?

the rears are ok apparently but no pics but I would ask for pics of the rear and touch again.

alex looking on line you cant just re skim ceramics like steels. you have to get them right back and re surface which is why they are so expensive

£1k per disc seems better than a new one from Porsche at £5k per disc ;-)

MaxA · 24 Aug 2018

If they're shagged, I'd be asking for a 2k discount for the work necessary to refurb them, if they are not replaced. Alternatively, I might consider fresh steels all round, although that does seem rather a shame, if the car had ceramics from the factory.

Alex · 24 Aug 2018

Thanks for the excellent info chaps :thumb:

Diggermeister · 24 Aug 2018

The two really big advantages of ceramics are their low weight, compared to steel, and the fact they don't rust.

The weight thing supposedly helps the wheels track rougher surfaces better (lower un-sprung mass) and also, theoretically, improves throttle response through lower intertia.

The 997.1 PCCB discs don't last that well, especially on track. My car has them and the only reason I've not yet swapped is because I'm prevaricating between A.) some decent Alcon steels (weight) or B.) Surface Transform carbon replacements (more cost than option A). The ST discs are supposedly much more durable than the OEM items, but discs and pads are still £10k.

The PCCBs on the 997.1 GT3 are a larger diameter than the steels, so going back to OEM steel discs is not an option, but it may well be on a C2 fitted with PCCBs.

K888ETH · 24 Aug 2018

A friend with a Ferrari fitted with carbons faced a huge bill after washing his car, then put it away without driving it to dry off the discs. They ended up looking pretty much like this and he ended up with a HUGE bill to get them replaced. He only had the car for a couple of months from new, so the discs were as good as new otherwise.

This is the same mate who got a puncture whilst on holiday in France and ended up getting the car towed by Ferrari recovery to a rural garage who used hammer on weights when balancing the wheels...his nickname is "Lucky"

Disco · 24 Aug 2018

alex yates said:
I don't know much about ceramic discs but I've done a fair bit of work in the past with ceramic machined parts. They just look like they need a bit of action to me?? No cracks in the ceramic, just look like they haven't been used enough, but like I say, don't know enough about ceramic brake discs.

Skimming then up on a cylindrical grinder would IMHO bring them up like new, don't where people can offer £1k for such a job?? Should be more like £200. :dont know:

You can do that on solid carbon ceramic rotors such as the Surface Transforms ones (also marketed by Alcon), but on PCCBs there is a thin ceramic layer over a substrate - they are most certainly NOT a solid mass of material that can be machined down. Once the surface starts to break down what you essentially have is like an abrasive angle grinder disk eating away your pads in short order. PCCB refurbishment is essentially replacing the thin ceramic layer and is the only option for bringing them back (it is a genuinely expensive part of the manufacturing process {hence the eye-widening price} and there is usually quite a bit of lead time involved, so you will need to go steel in the interim or take the car off the road while they are sent away if you follow this path). Otherwise your options are a new set for the price of a small hatchback, switching to the solid Surface Transforms type for significantly less or simply reverting to steel disks for less still.

To be perfectly honest - there really isn't any meaningful justification on a C2S to do anything other than switching to steel in my mind. Though that said, if you were acquiring the car then there is no reason not to have them changed to steel but insisting that they also give you the worn out ceramics. Refurbishment costs may fall in the time that it take to wear out those steels...

Incidentally - the car would need to have seen significant track use to knacker them on a Carrera if it has a remotely lowish mileage. For road use they ought to last starship mileages on cooking pork, so unless it has 6 figures on the odometer that perhaps ought to be bourn in mind when assessing the car. :thumb:

tired ceramics?

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