Porsche Warranty and PCGB - Not the support you expect!!

If you're thinking of buying 'Approved Used' because it'll give you that warm fuzzy feeling of security, not having to worry about faults, knowing you're covered by a comprehensive warranty, that'll get you back on the road - or, you're going to buy privately and get your car back into the Porsche Warranty for piece of mind, then think again.

I'll preface this review/advice with the fact that despite my frustrations with them, and it being the service delivery point, the OPC isn't to blame, only so far that they deliver what they're told by PCGB, with enough niceties that you don't shout at them.

Unfortunately, OPC's don't have all the answers, in fact in my experience, they have very few. They rely on 'tickets' being submitted to PCGB for advice on how to go about fixing your problems. Also rather unfortunately, like those online e-tailers who don't want to staff a support phone line, they take days to reply.

Long story short (seriously, this is the short version!), my car has a Fuel 'regurgitation' issue. When it's filled from half a tank, particularly on a hot day, it waits a few seconds, then spits it back out. Basic physics says that fuel can't defy gravity, so some other force (my guess is pressure in the tank) is pushing it back out the filler neck. I'd love to tell you I've seen the diagrams of how the EVAP system works (a system for recycling Fuel vapour from the tank into the engine), so I can see where this pressure is coming from (I'm an engineer, so understand pneumatics/hydraulics to a reasonable level), but they (OPC or PCGB) won't share that. Nor will they share the exact details of what they have done to try remedy the fault.

Now sit down for this bit,.... this has been going on since April. I've barely had the use of my car since then. They're on they're 4th attempt to fix it. They won't give me any garauntees that it will definately be fixed either, like the previous 3 times, it's a 'We think that'll work', because they're not finding an obviously faulty part.

At first, they tried to blame me, or the filling pump. They simplified my extensive description, the fact that fuel was still coming from the filler neck when they recovered it 3 hours later, a video I took 40mins after I notified them, and physics, to suggest I simply overfilled it, or the filling pump was faulty causing it to overfill.

The Service Manager at the OPC, who I demanded a meeting with because they took so long to come back initially, only to blame me, suggested they had to allow me to fill it again, to rule out my supposed incompetence, at another pump (to rule that out also). I asked him to explain how if I had overfilled it, the fuel would continue coming out hours after it started, how fuel could defy gravity. He wouldn't be drawn. He was more chatty, when we agreed to bring the car back when it needed filling, so I could take a tech with me to the nearest filling station. He said quite joyfully 'We'll see today if it 'was' a fuel filling pump issue', such was the confidence instilled in him by PCGB that I was the cause.

When I returned 30mins later, having recreated the same issue with a Porsche Tech in tow, he was quite obviously not as 'joyful'.

His Tech stated categorically 'we can't release the car with a dangerous fuel pressure issue'.

They have since released the car twice to me with this same dangerous fault.

Now I can see the OPC are stuck in the middle, but when neither they nor PCGB will answer my questions, I'm left with little resort short of legal claims, but to wait to see what they will do, and then hope they get it this time. Then I'll have to argue to recover the costs I've incurred in not only the disruption of breakdowns, the waits for courtesy cars, the emails, phone calls,but above these things, the actual costs of running a the car when I can't actually use it (Insurance, tax, warranty cover, depreciation etc).

So, although the warranty will cover the costs of the repair (subject to cover), it won't cover that they can take an age to fix it, or that they won't be able to tell you what was wrong in the first place. They won't tell you what they've done (well, not in any detail anyway), and they won't take any account of the fact you may only use your car in summer, and as such, you'll lose a years use for the same issue.

I get that the issue isn't a common one, but it seems to me (my opinion), that they're not applying simple logic and physics to the problem, instead choosing to follow a poorly written differential diagnosis, which tells them to change (I suspect) the cheapest part first, and try again, and not actually seek out the cause.

I was told on the second attempt, they'd replaced all the lines of the EVAP system. The third attempt they replaced the Carbon canister/filter, but then on the 4th attempt, they're now replacing the Purge line (a line that runs from the front of the car - fuel tank - to the back of the car - engine). For those of you with even the basics of pneumatics, 'Purge' is to depressurise, so a purge line allows pressure to leave the EVAP system (I suspect the canister where it collects), into the engine when at operating temperature. Those of you who understand this will be screaming 'this is the first line they should've replaced!'. Yes, a line which allows pressure out of the system has been left unchecked, and not replaced! I s**t you not!!

Because of my cars limited mileage, I won't allow them to burn half a tank of fuel to drain the tank. I was told in my meeting with the Service Manager that they couldn't drain the tank in the shop, as it required the whole front of the car to be taken to pieces, so I'd have to have it back and use the fuel up. This has meant each time I've had the car back, I've gone half a tank away, then had to be recovered, or slap the fuel cap on and drive back hoping the car won't go bang!
On the second occurrence, the tech showed him up, as he said it could be done easily in the shop. Short of motioning to the tech with a finger across the throat, I don't think his facial expression left much doubt he wanted the tech to shut up!

What I don't get however, is how they are failing to repeat the fault themselves, when I've had it happen 4 times, first time each time.

So, overall, it might protect your wallet somewhat, but it might not get you back out on the road. Consider this when you pay over-the-odds for an OPC car, or £0,000s on warranty cover with Porsche. I've probably had my money's worth in courtesy cars alone if I'd been paying, but the extended time it's taken I've lost more in running costs.

More recently the OPC has loaned me a nicer car than the enterprise sheds, and I mean sheds! I'm not being a snob, the models were OK, but they were battered, scruffy, dirty, and knackered, but neither those or the nicer cars the OPC has loaned me are a 911 Turbo.

So, choose wisely, and don't assume that an OPC car has some amazing security blanket with it, at the end of the day, you're still dealing with a warranty department, and their job is to minimise costs to the company, not you. They're only promise is to pay for the work you're covered for, no promise of service timeliness or security. And you can bet they'll bring out those very terms when it's finally resolved and I'm seeking compensation!

Are you sure your not overfilling it :grin:

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=119752

Sounds like the obvious things have been investigated, or considered, from your narrative,
but have a read through the link, there is also another thread contained within it. Some of it refers to slow filling when at the pump so disregard and read the rest of it. There may be something in there that your OPC may have overlooked. (I only skim read through it so you may have already exhausted those routes.)
The comments from Infrasilver, zebravanamn and dexterich may help.

Oh, and :welcome: to 911uk, sorry your first two posts have been negative ones for you.
When you're feeling ready come back and tell us more about your Turbo, especially with a pic or two. Good luck.

Hope you fix it and :welcome:

You will have to change your username once you do though :grin:

:thumb:

I sympathise, not nice to have trouble so early on. I would suggest you work out what would be an acceptable resolution bearing mind the OPC will not accept any costs incurred by yourself however justified you feel they are.

Do you want the car repaired, swapped for another one or refunded.

If the OPC who are trying to fix it is the one it was purchased from then get the sales manager and dealer principal involved rather the service manager.

Best of luck.

:welcome: to 911uk

Sorry to hear that your first posts are in these circumstances.

As someone who's had nothing but positive experiences of the OPC Extended Warranty on several occasions I'm curious to know whether you bought the car from an OPC or whether you added the warranty yourself.

Neither should affect the service you receive I'm just curious although if you bought the car from them quite recently I'd expect them to be sorting it out sooner rather than later as they know you have Consumer Rights on your side.

Gonna throw another idea in, what about taking it to another Porsche centre, it might be the one you're dealing with isn't the greatest. At least you'd get a different opinion and maybe closer to solving it.

Has your car always had this issue or when did it start happening?

OPC Hatfield?

From my extensive requests to the OPC it is very obvious that PCGB are holding the strings, and the OPC are just stuck doing as they're told. In all likelihood, another OPC, or independant is still going to have to get advice/clearance from Warranty dept, so it's highly likely it'll go in the same direction.

I bought the car from a dealer, who had Porsche within group, and so was able to get the car back into warranty with a 111, all done by them, and other work (service, tyres etc, usual pre purchase negotiations).

So far they are only mildly aware of the problem, as up till now, it could for all purposes just be a warranty claim, so no need to contact, but I have the records, and if I have to, will instruct the finance company (the legal route open to me), to reject the car.

Problem is, not taking into account this current issue, I think the cars worth slightly more now (retail). So handing it back for what I paid would basically be gifting them a profit once it's sorted. Unfortunately, whilst the law allows a dealer to subtract value for use, it's unlikely to work the other way round!

My biggest issue is that I'm being kept in the dark, I suspect because with my engineering knowledge, I'll be able to see through the sh*t, and that they're replacing the cheapest parts first, and not actually using engineering principles to isolate the issue, nor are there test procedures upto scratch.

To reply to you guys individually;

Jonttt - You're wasted if you aren't actually the Service Manager I speak of!

Pzero - read it all, and some, I've had the time ffs! Most of these are issues getting the fuel in. I haven't had a problem with this. My problem is specifically when I remove the nozzle (and only when I do) about 20-30 seconds, then it starts coming back out. I'm aware there's a sensor on the flap that closes when you remove the nozzle, supposedly allowing the EVAP system to check for a system seal. It's this 'switching' or control which I suspect is opening/closing somewhere else, allowing the pressure to build in the tank, possibly the pressure held in the canister. It regularly displaced 4-5 litres. Again, Ive not been shown any technical info, to even guess about the volumes/pressures of the canister, to see if it could displace 4-5 litres, but as I've just been told they're only just changing the bloody purge line, it's very possible the system things the canister is purged after a reasonable run (engine upto temp etc), and so when I stop to fill the tank, it's assuming the pressure is neutral, and as such opening the valves between the tank, and the canister wouldn't normally affect tank pressures. But it would only do this when the tank is full, as otherwise if open before filling, the system would be pre charged with non vapour pressure from filling the tank, rendering the system semi useless. Anyway, I digress, thanks pzero, I've read it all and passed on any relevant info to the OPC weeks ago!

Gottans - the OPC attempting the fix is not the supplying dealer, nor is it connected the the OPC connected with that dealer.

T8 - having now acquired a car directly from the OPC fixing it, I'd imagine the cost of this is somewhat more motivating than the thought of getting a car back, especially one which has gone up in value. They technically don't have any obligation to provide me with this courtesy car, I'm only entitled to the usual enterprise loaner, but besides, it's not the same dealer.

Sja360 - don't think it would change anything due to service ticket system they all use, basically the same dude telling all OPCs the same. The issue only came to light in April, on a very hot day. Since collecting the car last August, I'd probably say I've only filled it 2-3 times, and probably not a hot day on any of those occasions, and I may have been too quick to put the cap on and not noticed, so for reasons, it could very well have been pre-existing fault.

Desert dragon - I will neither confirm nor deny which OPC is handling, nor which dealer supplied the car until such time as I can categorically show fault with either, my complaint remains for now with PCGB and the warranty dept.

Ticked-off-Turbo that's certainly not a pleasant ownership experience.

Keep us posted to your progress and hopefully the publicity of this unresolved problem will lead PCGB to definitive action.

Can you just say what car this is .. 997 turbo or 991 ?

Ill have a dig and see what i can find out .. if anything of use then i will post it for you.

Does it only do this with engine running or engine off ..

Running and it sounds like a fuel pump is pressurising the tank .

Cant off hand think of anything on the evap side as thats more suction based and a flooded carbon canister should in theory give a fault code .

So atm all i have is .. replace the fuel pump and check the pick up pipes .