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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14429
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Gen 2 not intended as a scare story and is just my Car Reply with quote

After 4.5 years of gen1 ownership with no issues other than servicing and replacing the coolant pipes and one rad. I saw a lovely gen2 C4S at my local indy and was smitten .The car belonged to one of the guys involved with the indys race team he had wanted a car with 4 seats as close to a GT3 as poss so had asked the race team techs to make it happen and the car I now have was the result of this project . I saw the car as a base C4S arrive and everything they put on or took off that they didnt like so I kew they car very well .
When I brought the car it was quite modified so this suited me perfectly and there was enough left to do to still give me things to do to make it mine. this was 18 months ago .
From when I picked up the car until Xmas it was perfect and I enjoyed driving it daily and covered 10k miles . After Xmas the bills started , first the coolant pipes were misting at the joints so we dropped the engine to do that job. it was then fine for a month or so and I noticed the clutch slipping so booked it in to be done , the flywheel looked ok so it was decided to leave that job. then the engine had a strange lumpy running, back it went to the indy who couldnt find any reason for it and then suddenly it started to run fine while at the indy . nothing left to do but monitor it, so I did 1000 miles over a couple of weeks and all seemed ok. so next the road trip 1000 mile round trip to Dinslaken Germany with 40 odd other forum members, car ran fine apart from a window regulator breaking on the way out but easily fixed when we got back .
While in Germany the gearbox faulted meaning a loss of several gears anyway we got back to the UK using the gears we had . So off the car went for a gearbox rebuild at my indy their guy couldnt open the box (seems a common issue with the gen2) so it was sent to Parr motorsport who did have what was needed to fix it but it sat in a queue waiting for a build slot and parts it needed 2nd and 3rd gear full sets and syncros (bloody manual cars where was my gen1 tip that gave no issues lol) after a few weeks the gearbox arrived back at my indy to be put in the car, at this point we decided that it made sense to do the flywheel as the box was out and rebuilt and a new clutch it would be just my luck to put it back together and find the flywheel go .
I get the car back several weeks before Porsche on the prom Weymouth, drive the car most days no issues but on the way back from Weymouth the car starts to run very lumpy and missfire. So we limped the car back home . We put a durametric on it no fault codes just a visit workshop light but we see its missing on a single cylinder turn the engine off and restart the fault moves to another cylinder but just a single one again .checked coil packs although they were all new just before the germany trip. very odd decided we needed a PIWIS so this again showed missfires across both banks but only one cylinder at a time . OK lets try the easy fixes so we changed the 4 sensors in the engine the two on top and the two in the side , no change , changed the oil back to Mobil 1 just incase the viscosity of the millers was too thick (suggested by OPC tech) needless to say this was not the issue but had to be tried. We then decided to change the crankshaft sensor. nope issue still their , during the period of trying things and road testing we had refilled with VMax to ensure it wasnt a dodgy batch of fuel ,we had checked fuel pumps and fueling but the piwis would have picked up error codes for this , we checked the injector as this could have been damaged putting the gearbox back in .nope it was fine.
At this point we decided to seek the advise of the best of the best and I phoned Baz at Hartech , what a bloody nice and helpful guy he is 45 mins on the phone discussing what we have tried etc etc . He asked to see a set of boescore pics and asked for an oil sample to be sent for analysis as there is a very fine metalic film on the oil and several of the cylinders have unusual marks on them but not the borescoring Baz has seen on the gen2 before which is more of a jam at the bottom . We have also sent the magnetic sump plug to Hartech but that seemed clear indicating a non ferious metalic film in the oil.
We are now waiting for Baz to indicate the metal in the oil so hopefully it can lead us to what part has failed in the engine . the liners are allusil on the gen2 so it maybe that a tappet housing or valve has broken this has damaged a lining on the cylinder and thats the fine film in the oil. but thats speculation at the moment .
But it certainly looks like the third engine drop this year is going to happen and probably some form of engine rebuild . And before any of you say it no I cant have the 4 ltr Hartech convertion for the gen2 I already asked Baz Floor its not ready yet Floor Floor .
So thats my Gen 2 journey so far .
Am I losing sleep NO, am I annoyed at my bullet proof gen2 YES,
I have done the man maths and due to my not chocolate engined gen1 costing so little to run while I had it I still estimate if I keep my gen2 for the same period as my gen1 I will still only be at an ave of 3.5k PA for my years of 911 ownership , based on the fact that I drive it most days and do 12k pa plus. and compared to if my hobby was golf that would cost me about 3k pa in membership and greenfees for a couple or three rounds a week. So I am not stressed about it. So thats where I am at the moment waiting to hear what Baz thinks before my next step.
I have said it so many times these cars cost several thousand pounds a year to look after and sometimes every owner gets a bit and the cost is spread and at other times some owners get away with little to spend eg me and my gen1 and either the owner before or one of the future owners catches some big bills eg me with my gen2 but the ave will still work out very much the same for every 997 .
As said in the thread title this is no way intended as a scare story about the gen2 and is just my experience with my gen2 which I do use as intened and do drive a mim 12k pa, but also follow all the reccomended proceedures. but like anything the odd thing can happen no matter no well you look after the car and its not suddenly a design issue with the engine its just sometime things break. Thumb Thumb I will keep you updated on progress
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Kingb4
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 20 Jan 2018
Posts: 267
Location: Beds/Bucks


PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Phil,

Hope its gets sorted soon - fingers-crossed its nothing serious in the oil. At least you can relax, knowing you have some of the best available technical help.

Will be interesting to see what the upshot is, as I would have thought a misfire (particularly one that moves cylinder) is something electronic. But I guess it could be something mechanical that's triggering the electronic issues....

Your observation on running costs is probably accurate. It probably evens itself out, as long as you play the game long-enough for the statistics to be effective.

Cheers
Ben
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spongebob squarepants
Reims


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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Location: Manchester and Iraq


PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil,
Could all these issues be due to the vehicles past? If the previous owner was part of the Indy race team? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
James Dont know
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silvermilnec
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 1477
Location: Leeds West Yorkshire


PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to here this phill but congrats on a sensible approach! I actually don’t think it’s man maths. I know mates who drive other marquee that cost easy £5k a year in deprecation plus service costs. I know one mate with a merc C class that broke down 3 times in the first year ok it was covered under warranty but it’s still a pain! My business partner paid £42k for a cayenne 18 months ago he can’t get £28k for it now, that’s £14k in 18 months!

Hang in there I’m sure it will be back to normal soon Thumb
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silvermilnec
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double post
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Last edited by silvermilnec on Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14429
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ben, yes we originally thought electrical which is why the changed so many solenoids and sensors , theres always a possibility that the film on the oil and the running are two seperate issues . we have discussed reflashing the original map back on it as the remap may have corrupted it wouldnt be the first time thats would have happened. But at the moment we are trying one step at a time which is all you can do when there are no clear fault codes to give you a clue. So at present waiting to get an idea if the metalic film is anything to be concered about and the same with the bore pics. If Baz is of the opinion its just normal minute metallic debris in the car and the cylinder pics are just normal scuffing both consistent of a 63k mile engine then the map reflash would probably be the next thing we try. it would be a shame to spend 10 hrs labour dropping the engine to find nothing mechanical wrong especially as I have just spent 1k on sensors and solonoids and an oil change back to mobil1 to find they didnt fix it. Thumb
Floor Floor yes my man maths is always based on keeping a car for 4 or 5 years which luckily with the 911 is no great hardship Grin would be more upset if I was stuck with a nissan turdingo, shitron or similar for 5 years Grin
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14429
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spongebob squarepants wrote:
Phil,
Could all these issues be due to the vehicles past? If the previous owner was part of the Indy race team? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
James Dont know


James, its a good theory and if I didnt know the car or the previous owner I would agree, but it was never tracked or abused they didnt need to they have race cars at their disposal , the previous owner wasnt a boy racer but he is obsessed with projects and gets his kicks with the development and build more than the final car which is why it went up for sale within 12 months of finishing it so it freed up the cash for another build project.
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14429
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silvermilnec wrote:
Sorry to here this phill but congrats on a sensible approach! I actually don’t think it’s man maths. I know mates who drive other marquee that cost easy £5k a year in deprecation plus service costs. I know one mate with a merc C class that broke down 3 times in the first year ok it was covered under warranty but it’s still a pain! My business partner paid £42k for a cayenne 18 months ago he can’t get £28k for it now, that’s £14k in 18 months!

Hang in there I’m sure it will be back to normal soon Thumb


Thanks Chris, We are lucky these cars dont depreciate at the same rate as most others, it does allow us to be more positive when a big bill comes in. and imagine if your business partner lost 14k on his car and spent 5k playing golf over 18 months . Grin not even sure my man maths calculator could would with those numbers Floor Floor
I remember a few years ago I brought a new merc drove it out of the dealership pulled over and said to the person with me "thats 8k I just spent driving to here" Floor Floor last new car I ever brought or will ever buy. Grin Grin which is probably why I cant get allocation for a flagship Porsche for me to flip for a couple of hundred grand profit Floor
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pcat
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 16 Oct 2013
Posts: 314



PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
silvermilnec wrote:
Sorry to here this phill but congrats on a sensible approach! I actually don’t think it’s man maths. I know mates who drive other marquee that cost easy £5k a year in deprecation plus service costs. I know one mate with a merc C class that broke down 3 times in the first year ok it was covered under warranty but it’s still a pain! My business partner paid £42k for a cayenne 18 months ago he can’t get £28k for it now, that’s £14k in 18 months!

Hang in there I’m sure it will be back to normal soon Thumb


Thanks Chris, We are lucky these cars dont depreciate at the same rate as most others, it does allow us to be more positive when a big bill comes in. and imagine if your business partner lost 14k on his car and spent 5k playing golf over 18 months . Grin not even sure my man maths calculator could would with those numbers Floor Floor
I remember a few years ago I brought a new merc drove it out of the dealership pulled over and said to the person with me "thats 8k I just spent driving to here" Floor Floor last new car I ever brought or will ever buy. Grin Grin which is probably why I cant get allocation for a flagship Porsche for me to flip for a couple of hundred grand profit Floor



There's a gen 2 much like mine with 60k+ miles on it for sale right now at just over 40k. I paid 45k for mine 5 years ago with 15k miles on it

That's £1k/year or £1k/10,000 miles depreciation. I lost £16k in 18 months on a 1 series bmw coupe once....
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14429
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pcat wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:
silvermilnec wrote:
Sorry to here this phill but congrats on a sensible approach! I actually don’t think it’s man maths. I know mates who drive other marquee that cost easy £5k a year in deprecation plus service costs. I know one mate with a merc C class that broke down 3 times in the first year ok it was covered under warranty but it’s still a pain! My business partner paid £42k for a cayenne 18 months ago he can’t get £28k for it now, that’s £14k in 18 months!

Hang in there I’m sure it will be back to normal soon Thumb


Thanks Chris, We are lucky these cars dont depreciate at the same rate as most others, it does allow us to be more positive when a big bill comes in. and imagine if your business partner lost 14k on his car and spent 5k playing golf over 18 months . Grin not even sure my man maths calculator could would with those numbers Floor Floor
I remember a few years ago I brought a new merc drove it out of the dealership pulled over and said to the person with me "thats 8k I just spent driving to here" Floor Floor last new car I ever brought or will ever buy.

Grin Grin which is probably why I cant get allocation for a flagship Porsche for me to flip for a couple of hundred grand profit Floor



There's a gen 2 much like mine with 60k+ miles on it for sale right now at just over 40k. I paid 45k for mine 5 years ago with 15k miles on it

That's £1k/year or £1k/10,000 miles depreciation. I lost £16k in 18 months on a 1 series bmw coupe once....



Theres no doubt mate we are very lucky with the 911 that even when a big bill hits we can remain positive in the knowledge that much of the money is not lost its just invested and we are still better off than the guy with the nearly new beemer who had no issues but just suffered huge depreciation. Grin the more people realise this the more are going to buy these cars and the more the prices will go up. Thumb
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Gottans
Monza


Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope you get to the root cause of the problem, assume a compression test didn't show anything of note?

Very interested in the outcome of this as a gen 2 owner so fingers crossed.
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
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2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very very bad luck with it being a Gen 2, I hope the outcome doesn't dent the wallet too much.
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Counter Of Beans
Silverstone


Joined: 10 May 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some sensible comments here about depreciation. As I keep having to explain to Mrs COB, the true cost of a car must include the difference between its purchase price and its sale value. For a used Porsche that seems much lower than most other brands.
My other car is a Range Rover. I know folk who've splashed £75k plus on a Rangie that'll be worth £45k maximum in 3 years when the warranty expires and they px it for a new one. That's £10k per year depreciation right there, and they aren't known for their reliability.
Anyway Phil I hope you get your car fixed as soon as possible and without too much more expense. You'll also have the bonus of everything having been fully checked - it's all part of the bonding process!
Mike.
 
  
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KJD
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Feb 2015
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Location: Monmouthshire


PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn frustrating and a lost summer of driving .
I just hope it’s sorted as soon and as pain free as possible. Thumb
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
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1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I've worked it out. Your car was intended for 'Lucky' Les as he's having too much good luck on his current run of 911s Grin
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14429
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zingari wrote:
I think I've worked it out. Your car was intended for 'Lucky' Les as he's having too much good luck on his current run of 911s Grin


Floor Floor Les did like mine Zingers , hes had so much good luck with his last one he thinks his fortunes have improved enough to venture to a DB9 , I just hope hes doesn't end up costing him the 50k mine did in 4 yrs of ownership. Grin Grin
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
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Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KJD wrote:
Damn frustrating and a lost summer of driving .
I just hope it’s sorted as soon and as pain free as possible. Thumb


Thanks Kev, most frustrating thing is the not actually knowing whats wrong with it. Thumb
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14429
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:
Some sensible comments here about depreciation. As I keep having to explain to Mrs COB, the true cost of a car must include the difference between its purchase price and its sale value. For a used Porsche that seems much lower than most other brands.
My other car is a Range Rover. I know folk who've splashed £75k plus on a Rangie that'll be worth £45k maximum in 3 years when the warranty expires and they px it for a new one. That's £10k per year depreciation right there, and they aren't known for their reliability.
Anyway Phil I hope you get your car fixed as soon as possible and without too much more expense. You'll also have the bonus of everything having been fully checked - it's all part of the bonding process!
Mike.


lets hope the bonding process works out better than it did with my 1st wife Floor or it will be off to bond with someone else Grin just like the 1st wife Floor Floor Floor moved her on with serious borescore from abuse from too many drivers not fully warmed up before pushing hard Floor Floor Floor
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Thefinn
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad news Phil let's hope you find out the issue soon and it's not an engine out job. Thumb
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 14429
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thefinn wrote:
Sad news Phil let's hope you find out the issue soon and it's not an engine out job. Thumb


thanks Finn, gottans, infrasilver will keep everyone posted on findings as we progress . Thumb Thumb
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