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Kingb4
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 20 Jan 2018
Posts: 256
Location: Beds/Bucks


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Wheel Bearing? Reply with quote

Hello, after some advice (again!)
Just taken the car out for a drive and noticed a light knocking through the steering at low-speed (can hear and feel it). Not getting any drone/noise at higher-speed.

I put the car up on the lift and went over the front-end. I cant see any movement in any of the bushes etc. However I can get some movement (can see and hear it) in the front drivers-side wheel, if I grip the tyre at the top and bottom and push/pull it. Looking at the top of they tyre, it looks to be moving relative to the spring/strut (a tiny amount, 1mm or less). The noise seems to be coming from the hub area. In the past, working on other older cars, that usually means the wheel bearing is shot. However reading online, when other people have posted similar issues on forums, it has been have suggested that you wont identify a bearing issue in the 996 via this route and that tie-rod ends are a more likely culprit for the steering knock.

Am debating do I go with my instinct and just do the bearing. Or do I go belt and braces and do the bearing and the track rod ends (will mean getting the alignment done...)

Welcome any views.
Cheers
Ben
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2002 996.2 C2 Cabriolet
 
  
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deMort
Zolder


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slight play top and bottom movement on the wheel will probably be in the shock absorber but i would have a very close look at the bottom coffin arm ball joint .. you need a second person really to rock the wheel whilst you look .

A wheel bearing cant make a knocking noise .. well if it does your in big trouble .. it will be a drone and similar to tyre noise .. it will be louder when cornering on one side .. far more than cornering the other side.

I take it this isnt when brakeing but just low speed driveing .

best test for the coffin arm ball joint is a lever bar between it and the hub with the wheel off the ground .. look for any movement .
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maldren
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not expect a knock from a wheel bearing unless it was totally shot, usually you get a whining noise that is loud when you corner in one direction and not in the other as the bearing load changes.

I would have thought that knocking is more likely to come from a failed joint steering ball joints for example.
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2003 996.2 C2 Coupe Arctic Silver
 
  
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maldren
Österreich


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deMort, you beat me to it and with a better reply as usual.

Excellent!
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deMort
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Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maldren wrote:
deMort, you beat me to it and with a better reply as usual.

Excellent!



Embarassed

All that matters is that the OP gets some answers .

We also come to the same conclusions and that always reinforces the idea .

Thumb
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Last edited by deMort on Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Kingb4
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 20 Jan 2018
Posts: 256
Location: Beds/Bucks


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both- thats brilliant. (DeMort am always amazed that you spend your working week on these cars and then give up your free time to help people fixing them!)

Will get a pry-bar and test the ball joint on the coffin arm (the arms themselves look very new and the rubbers look in great condition).
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deMort
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive been haveing a think about this .. you can "feel" the knocking through the steering wheel .. thats a little unusual .

Have a good pull up and down and outwards on the link rod that side .. thats more the sort of thing if you can feel it i think .
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Kingb4
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

really appreciate all the help. I followed your advice and just went back out to the garage, I took the air-flow plastic (guess it directs cool air onto the disks) off the arm, so I could get a decent lever onto the lower ball-joint. There was no play at all....looking at the arm, I would guess its fairly new.

So I followed your second tip and got someone else to help. With my wife rocking the wheel (12 o'clock and 6 o'clock) and me under the car, I could see and hear that in fact the movement is much higher up than I thought, its actually at the top-mount.........Sorry, I know I said it was coming from the hub, it sounded that way when I was beside the car, but underneath it was clear it was not coming from the coffin arm and there wasnt any movement there.

Just googled top mount and knocking at low speed, there are millions of threads on it, looks like its a common issue. Now to work out what to do about it....
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deMort
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Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top mount makes perfect sense .. just replace it .. its a bearing and a rubber mount .. you really need a geo after replacement but you can get away with just marking the nuts then useing that mark .

If your good with spanners then its a home job .. if your not so good then ill suggest a garage .. there are a couple of bolts that might cause issues if your not used to this ...

Hell there are a couple of bolts that have given me no end of grief in the past .. and i work in a fully equipped workshop !

EDIT ..

Ill bet your wife loves you .. clean hands .. this time of night and wiggleing a wheel !!

She has my sympathy .
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Kingb4
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks DeMort - will have a go myself, whilst new to Porsches, have worked on plenty of cars (mainly older/simpler e.g. Minis and Mk2 Escorts). Just read a few guides and looks ok.

You correctly guessed that my wife was 'delighted' to help, especially as I came in asking for help just at the point she was trying to sit-down having put the kids to bed. Then to add to her misery both kids re-appeared, with various well-trodden excuses for being back out of bed.....
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Kingb4
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, silly question. Do I need to do both top-mounts, even though I only have an issue on one side?
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wasz
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Joined: 28 Dec 2012
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1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it would be daft not to do both.

I had a saga with top mounts, bought the cheap ones from design 911 and they failed soon after.

Remove the plastic trim above the top mount. Remove the plastic circles.

Get in your frunk and bounce up and down (seriously) whlst holding your finger on the big nut. You will feel it knocking. Your neighbours will think you are crazy

You may need a buzz gun impact wrench to get the big bolt off. Some people use mole grips at the very top of the damper shaft wrapped in tape to stop it rotating.

You can remove the cup washer and see the rubber top mount, see if its separated.


On a C2 you can get top mounts out without removing the struts (the ARB bolt securing the damper will be stuck).

Jack the front up.

Use spring compressors to ....er.... compress the spring lots.

remove the 3x top mount bolts.

Push down hard (you are fighting the dampers) on the top of the shaft.

The damper will try to slowly rise

Quickly pivot the strut out of the wheel arch before it rises.....

Swap the top mount.

I think I also removed the brake caliper to do this so not to stress the line. Maybe I also loosened the coffin arm bolt too to as not to stress the rubber bush.
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Last edited by wasz on Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:24 pm; edited 5 times in total
 
  
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wasz
Magny-Cours


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
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1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use the SACHS brand top mounts from autodoc.co.uk £20 each. Mine came with Porsche part number ground off...they are the same as you would get at the OPC.

You may also need the ball bearing from your OPC only.

Oh, and you should get a geo check afterwards. I marked my 3x top mount bolts first to get them approx back in the same place.

I also had a shock with play as Demort said. And inner track rods knocked only when hot. Everything in the supension was worn on my car over 110k miles.
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Kingb4
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 20 Jan 2018
Posts: 256
Location: Beds/Bucks


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats brilliant, really appreciate the write up, thanks Wasz.

Will get the bits ordered ....I had found your other threads on the cheaper part - I will get them from the same supplier.

I have a couple of cordless impact wrenches, so hoping the bigger (makita dtw450) will do it, its not failed me yet.
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deMort
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You dont have to do both sides but the way i look at it .. they are going to be the same age .. maybe do the bad side and see how you go and save the other side for a later date Smile

I love that the kids showed up .. they can sense when something is going on bless them .. well bless them if they goto sleep on time perhaps !

My sympathys to your poor wife Very Happy
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Kingb4
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have finally had the time to start looking at my top mounts. I ordered the Sachs mounts and got the strut bearings delievered from my local OPC.

Thought I was all ready to go, but have hit a snag.....my spring compressors wont fit the springs... Am I missing something?

Issues seem to be:
1) I have to put the first compressor on with the nut at the top, otherwise there is too much thread sticking up and it hits the inner wing
2) I can only get a compressor on one side, the other one wont fit at all
3) Struggling to get more then one coil of the spring between the jaws of the second spring compressor and then, it wont compress anyway, as the jaws are already touching each other.

Am concluding my current spring compressors won't work. What make/model of spring compressor do other people use?[/list]
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wasz
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Joined: 28 Dec 2012
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1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may be able to get it out from the arch without compressing the spring here.

Remove and support brake caliper
Undo lower ARB connection (top bolt will be seized!)
Loosen coffin arm bolt
Undo top mount 3x bolts
Loosen shock top bolt

Push down on hub and you should just be able to swing the strut out




Then you will have more room to get a compressor on.

I used the dangerous single hook type compressors

Tbh they aren't under much static tension...
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rhino-man
Monza


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we changed the top mounts and springs on the 996 we didn't need to use spring compressors, as Wasz said virtually no tension. Just do it on the ground and take reasonable care.
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Kingb4
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Both - really appreciate the help.

Have managed it.....on one-side, will do the other another day. Think its time for a cool beer!

Wasz you were correct the top bolt on the drop-link was seized in the carrier (the nut came off, but I couldn't get the bolt to shift in the carrier). I dread the time I need to change the shocks - which will come soon, judging by the appearance of mine.

The springs weren't under much compression. However I managed to fashion an alternative method to compress the spring (was about to break out the mig and construct something decent, then I remembered I had all this bar). So I was able to change the mount with the strut still in-situ, rather than swinging the strut out. Which was lucky, as I couldn't get a socket onto the coffin-arm bolt. Am guessing its 18mm. Helpfully my spanners were 17mm or 19mm. As its a new coffin-arm, I didnt want to damage the rubber bush by twisting it.
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wasz
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Joined: 28 Dec 2012
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1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent!

When I removed my struts, I ended up splitting the ball joints and taking the strut+hub to the bench and pounding the top ball joint bolt out.

I hear the thing to do it is to heat the arb ball joint up till the plastic melts, remove the ball joint outer. Put a deep socket over the remains and spin with impact gun while smacking it out. Heat helps to get it moving.

Your shocks look ok, buzz off and por15 will smarten them up if they still work well.
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