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RobIpswichUK
Kyalami


Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 1946
Location: Ipswich (at a guess!)

1994 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject: 993 HIDs and the New MOT Regulations Reply with quote

All,

On the basis that I would think 99% of our 993's are running HID's of varying types (mine are from ToreB, as per a lot of you).

What are people's thoughts on the latest MOT regulations that come in in May 2018.

Extract from the Test manual:
Some vehicles may be fitted with High Intensity Discharge (HID) headlamps. It is not permitted to
convert existing halogen headlamp units for use with HID bulbs. If it is clear that such a conversion has
been carried out, rather than replacing the entire unit with one designed and approved for use with HID
bulbs, the headlamp should be rejected.


On the basis that assuming you are using ToreB's kit inside the headlight housing, I assume MOT testers wouldn't be able to take out the headlight and open up the back plate, they would have to assume that they are standard?? Is there any other way they could identify as halogen headlights, and therefore fail?

Thoughts welcome (although I'll have a year before it is a problem as MOT due in April)

Rob
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asterix_the_gaul
Suzuka


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1006
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't think it's going to be an issue given balast not generally on show and headlights are projectors and have washers. No mot tester is going to start dismantling the headlights to check, they simply don't have the time. I guess it will all depend on how seriously the particular tester takes it, they have deniability if it's not obvious and they generally don't want to fail cars that are safe, the 996 crowd who have fitted hid to the reflector headlamps might be more at risk as its far more obvious they are retrofitted.
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AP90
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 320
Location: Cornwall UK


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just what we need in the UK..............more laws and regulation.......
 
  
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911UK
Porsche Community
Porsche Community


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9597
Location: 911UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

an interesting question, which needs some input from all.

To make an assumption, if the HID Ballast is inside the headlamp unit then you would probably be ok.

Can't recall if the factory HID unit had a deeper rear panel and thus allow the HID ballast to be attached to it.

Units where the HID ballasts are wired into the unit and stored outside of the headlamp unit are going to be a potential issue.

Since Porsche did have an OEM Xenon (Litonics) option for the 993, there is a potential solution for this, as long as the unit mirrors the OEM headlamp.
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12328
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AP90 wrote:
Just what we need in the UK..............more laws and regulation.......


It's a conspiracy by the Government to get more diesel cars off the road as the low VED cost is a missed opportunity that's gone on too long. Petrol cars will get wrapped up in it

Smoke (and mirrors) = MOT failure nooo
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kerb scraper
Nürburgring


Joined: 25 May 2012
Posts: 391
Location: Hertfordshire

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copied from a supplier's website FAQ:

Unfortunately no aftermarket HID kit is strictly road legal as you are changing the lighting system (from halogen to gas discharge) in your car and for this reason the bulbs can't be E marked which is a legal requirement. You also won't have the self leveling and washer systems installed which is also a legal requirement for HID and without these installed the kit would be an MOT failure. HID kits are plug and play so they are easy to remove and replace with standard bulbs come MOT time.

Does seem daft that in the case of Tore's kit it is illegal considering the non dazzling nature and improvement of vision for the driver.
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AP90
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 320
Location: Cornwall UK


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, is there a way round this via and LED projector system
 
  
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ToreB
Approved Trader


Joined: 13 May 2010
Posts: 559
Location: Oslo, Norway


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original 993 Litronic HID lamps never had self-leveling, this was a requirement that was introduced later in most countries. The 996 Litronic system has self-leveling. Porsche was very early in using HID systems in their cars. I suspect that headlight washers were required back then, but I am not sure.
The headlight housing (bucket) is exactly the same with Litronic and halogen, except for the special wiring in the headlight connector to the bulky Litronic HID ballasts placed in the frunk side walls.
All modifications to a light is illegal, also fitting HID systems to lights meant for halogen lights. However, the 993 Litronic and halogen headlamps looks exactly the same. They also share the same lens and reflector, but the Litronics have a D2S lamp holder on the reflector behind the lens, not the H1 halogen bulb type.
The 993 light is therefore very well suited for retrofitting HID systems, there is little or no danger of stray light or wrong light output pattern. Fitting HID in normal reflector headlights without the glass lens is not recommended.
The headlight front glass is the same in Litronic and halogen 993 lights, (there's only one type of replacement part available) so a MOT inspector would have to dismantle the headlight to see if a HID system is retrofitted.
I doubt that they take the time to do this.
The T-LIGHT kit allow for quick replacement of the original halogen bulbs too, so you could do this before inspection time if you do not want to waist the MOT technicians time.
I don't bother to do this, and it has never been noted in MOT. I have had one or wo reports from customers that had a fail and needed to revisit with the halogen bulbs.
Cheers,
Tore
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stewart rix
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 28 Sep 2010
Posts: 356
Location: Wokingham

1997 Porsche 993 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the recommendation here is to have your headlamps properly aligned and hence give no reason for a tester to pay them any further attention, other than to make sure they are operational.
 
  
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Palladium
Indianapolis


Joined: 01 Nov 2015
Posts: 2496



PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Germany have just upped the ante on diesel,

the new mot smoke rule is another eu directive,

something that should have been in our rear view mirror on 17/6/16

but of course we have a clown in charge.
 
  
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Endoman
Suzuka


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 1035
Location: Bolton U.K.


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the low beam is a projector and Litronics is HID then I can't see a problem. I have Morimotos (designed for hid) and fitted with Tore's system so shoudn't be a ok. Anyway my mate Kev does the mots and all the stuff I can't do.
But as Tore said hids don't work very well in main (dazzle and scatter)
I have leds in main so not sure if that is covered by new regs.
Makes sense as too many have used hids in wrong housing.
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solentben
Newbie


Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 10



PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: MoT testing Reply with quote

Hi guys. I'm guilty as charged running my 993 with HID to my dip beam for a few years, no problems thus far, but with the new MoT guidance I'm really quite unsure how it will play out. I really don't want to go to the faff of swopping out the HID for halogens just for a day as IMHO it does open up a can of legal worms I suspect? Also, hidden ballasts or not, I cannot imagine the glaring whiteness of the HID will fool any tester into thinking they are 'normal' halogens, even if some bulbs do mimic? A little checking will expose our ploy! I know safety & logic is being thrown out the window, albeit aftermarket HIDs which are bi-xenon i.e. also HID the main beam, can be dazzling and are perhaps the main reason this new MoT requirement has come about? My gut feeling is that individual MoT testers will either apply the rules without discretion or unless clearly dazzling, let them through on a nod? I am considering an early MoT test (pre 18th May 2018) as one option, to at least let the dust settle on this debate & sort it out sensibly over the next Winter (with the inevitable costs) for my 2019 driving. I know it isn't going away. Unfortunately.
 
  
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Nimrod
Montreal


Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 537
Location: East Midlands


PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea to get an early MOT but only delaying the inevitable.

I asked a friend about this who owns an MOT garage .

He knows my car has had HID dipped beam fitted but I asked him how would he know if another 93 came in as they were a factory option and the lenses are the same and they have washers etc...

He didn’t know but suggested that by May they may know which were factory or not from reg / chassis numbers . I find that hard to believe and he did concede that it will be difficult to know what to do in this situation .
It’s bllody crazy the MOT tester should be able to decide as some are bloody obviouslyfitted to unsuitable headlamps.

I don’t see how they can fail a car where it was an option that is working correctly as they aren’t meant to remove things to check .
That said it is a pita and if decent led’s had been available at the time I would have gone that route and just stopped back to halogen for one day each year .
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solentben
Newbie


Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 10



PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nimrod, thank you for your input and agree, I would only be delaying the inevitable and its defo a pita!! It was an option if I can't decide what best to do pre-18 May. Reading your reply ..... I also agree dubious they will know standard fit HID from new or not, but we are all trying to second guess here. My reading of your reply is that you're basically agreeing with me (to some extent?) that individual MoT testers will decide ay or nay on the day? We all wish common sense would prevail, obviously, but our modern world very rarely seems to understand the meaning of that, across all spheres of our life. Bring back Mr Churchill lol. Thanks. Ben
 
  
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highway
Albert Park


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 1714



PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only garage this might be an issue is an opc or specialist. Mainstream MOT are big business. They have neither time nor interest to worry about dismantling headlight assemblies to confirm compliance. Never going to be a real world issue.
 
  
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Tobesetc
Barcelona


Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 1367
Location: West London, UK


PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree can't see this ever being an issue at a regular MOT station. Garage that does mine is far too real-world (hopefully not famous last words....)
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6531
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what's the deal with LED bulbs... do they simply plug into the existing halogen holder?
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3309
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911UK wrote:
an interesting question, which needs some input from all.

To make an assumption, if the HID Ballast is inside the headlamp unit then you would probably be ok.

Can't recall if the factory HID unit had a deeper rear panel and thus allow the HID ballast to be attached to it.

Units where the HID ballasts are wired into the unit and stored outside of the headlamp unit are going to be a potential issue.

Since Porsche did have an OEM Xenon (Litonics) option for the 993, there is a potential solution for this, as long as the unit mirrors the OEM headlamp.


My 993 GT2 rep has Litronics (factory fitted). The ballasts are fitted to the inner wing inside the frunk and on full view.

I have had HIDs on the 996 since I bought it 10 years ago (projector style lights). The standard bulbs are positively dangerous.

Both cars now have 4800 Lumens LED main beams which I can highly recommend.

Never had even a comment at MOT time, despite neither car having headlight washers. I've been mates with my MOT tester for over 20 years so that may help, but he said that so long as the beam pattern is sensible he'd pass them.
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3309
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
So what's the deal with LED bulbs... do they simply plug into the existing halogen holder?


Yes but you need to chose carefully as some of them have massive heatsinks / fans which can make mounting a problem. I use the CREE type with a sort of "fan" of braided cable as the heatsink. This is much easier to deal with but still requires a bit of lateral thinking to make it all fit in a 993 or 996 headlight unit.
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maldren
Imola


Joined: 07 Oct 2016
Posts: 769



PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
So what's the deal with LED bulbs... do they simply plug into the existing halogen holder?


They vary, mine didn't, on a 996 the H7 clip didn't fit them to I had to buy a separate (BMW I think) mounting.

More importantly, my LEDs have a great, even white light but critically, not a very hot spot in the centre for lighting down the road. I was planning HIDs but now I'm not sure!
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