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dp400
Trainee


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 55



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Bore Score on a 3.8 Gen1 - How common is it really? Reply with quote

Hi Guys

Im looking to get my first Porsche and a gen 1 997 Carrera 2S is my current favourite within my £25k budget.

However the more I read on the net about bore score on the gen 1 3.8 the more Im going off the idea and leaning towards a 996 C4S.

Can anyone give any input on how common the issue really is and if its been blown out of all proportion by the nay sayers on the net. Or is it genuinely a common issue and I should therefore avoid a no Hartec rebuilt gen 1 3.8?

Any input gratefully received.

Thanks

Dave
 
  
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angry
Montreal


Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 567
Location: East sussex


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pop Corn
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angry
Montreal


Joined: 30 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.hartech.org
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MJA911
Magny-Cours


Joined: 10 Dec 2013
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Location: Berkshire

2006 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mention Hartech, you could do worse than go to their website and read up their papers, a great free resource to all owners and potential owners of these cars.

EDIT: as indicated above Embarassed
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Steve997
Monza


Joined: 11 Aug 2013
Posts: 213



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the well respected Porsche Inspector Peter Morgan it's less than 5% effected.

Buy a car from a well respected specialist and just enjoy. The m96 in the 996 c4s is also effected anyway.
 
  
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resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1125



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5% sounds about right, and more importantly, there is bore score which needs a rebuild, and then there is bore score which doesn't get worse and is perfectly fine.

Don't believe the scaremongers, including some dealers (some idiot at RPM Technik who is in modern classics this month saying "don't touch Gen 1 cars, they have to many issues, we don't touch them" for example).

I have a 2007 C2S Manual Cabrio. Awesome car. Has been well looked after. I don't thrash it until it's warmed up, and change the oil every year, instead of the 2 year service. Get a good one, or one which has already had a rebuild, and enjoy an immensely talented car. Get in now while you can still afford a decent one. Prices have been climbing for a while. Mine was £30,000 almost 3 years ago. I couldn't replace it now for less than £35k.

You want, manual, C2S. PSE, Heated Seats, Sports Chrono all all nice but not essential.

It's about condition, not mileage so much. Don't be scared of a good looked after higher mileage car. You should probably get any car checked properly for Bore Score, and try and get a newer IMS car, post late 2005 (check the engine number range!)

it's about time someone really knowledgeable put this all in a pinned thread along with the engine numbers!
 
  
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mzmini
Barcelona


Joined: 30 Jan 2015
Posts: 1440
Location: Somerset


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spot on worship
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Magic919
Hockenheim


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 743
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Threads on the topic are far more common than actual scoring. I'd have a read of some of those.
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Steve997
Monza


Joined: 11 Aug 2013
Posts: 213



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great summary "resigner" Thumb
 
  
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Steve997
Monza


Joined: 11 Aug 2013
Posts: 213



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

resigner wrote:


Don't believe the scaremongers, including some dealers (some idiot at RPM Technik who is in modern classics this month saying "don't touch Gen 1 cars, they have to many issues, we don't touch them" for example).



Disappointing to hear them say that. I nearly bought a 997.1 car off them 2 months ago. I would have too if the deal was right but ended up with a better car and deal at RSJ.
 
  
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-- 997 --
Suzuka


Joined: 11 Jun 2015
Posts: 1023



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

resigner wrote:
Don't believe the scaremongers, including some dealers (some idiot at RPM Technik who is in modern classics this month saying "don't touch Gen 1 cars, they have to many issues, we don't touch them


What a WANKEL (R)

J

Last edited by -- 997 -- on Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:45 am; edited 2 times in total
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14286
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

resigner wrote:


5% sounds about right, and more importantly, there is bore score which needs a rebuild, and then there is bore score which doesn't get worse and is perfectly fine.



iirc around 72,000 997.1 S cars were produced.

Any potential buyer just has to keep their fingers crossed they don't get one of the 3,600 that are affected.

It's obviously something that's widely accepted as being an issue. You only need to see the difference in asking prices for late Gen1 cars v early Gen2s.
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resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1125



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That gap seems to be closing quite quickly as far as I see, certainly at the low end of Gen 2 prices. Prices of low mileage cars is rising rapidly, but take these 2 as an example

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-carrera-997/porsche-997-carrera-4-s-coupe-manual/8339714

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-carrera-997/porsche-911-3-8-carrera-2s-2dr/8150922


OP, I was the same as you, set myself a £25k budget, started looking at what I could buy for that, couldn't believe in included 997 cabrio's. Ended up spending more for a very very high spec low mileage car, but incredible value. nothing gets close!
 
  
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Phil 997
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 13724
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

resigner wrote:
5% sounds about right, and more importantly, there is bore score which needs a rebuild, and then there is bore score which doesn't get worse and is perfectly fine.

Don't believe the scaremongers, including some dealers (some idiot at RPM Technik who is in modern classics this month saying "don't touch Gen 1 cars, they have to many issues, we don't touch them" for example).

I have a 2007 C2S Manual Cabrio. Awesome car. Has been well looked after. I don't thrash it until it's warmed up, and change the oil every year, instead of the 2 year service. Get a good one, or one which has already had a rebuild, and enjoy an immensely talented car. Get in now while you can still afford a decent one. Prices have been climbing for a while. Mine was £30,000 almost 3 years ago. I couldn't replace it now for less than £35k.

You want, manual, C2S. PSE, Heated Seats, Sports Chrono all all nice but not essential.

It's about condition, not mileage so much. Don't be scared of a good looked after higher mileage car. You should probably get any car checked properly for Bore Score, and try and get a newer IMS car, post late 2005 (check the engine number range!)

it's about time someone really knowledgeable put this all in a pinned thread along with the engine numbers!



Phew perfect saves me writing exactily the same Thumb OP spend less time reading the scare stories remember only the few its happened to rant on the net no one says " drove my 997 today and em well ur nothing went wrong "
the vast vast majority of these cars are sound.
Dont listen to the "they will all need a rebuild at some point" every single car of every marque will need a rebuild at some point in the next 50 years, its a stupid weak arguement and serves no purpose other than to worry potential new owners .

The 996.2 has the same potential issue so you cant negate it by doing that .
you can reduce the risk even further than 5% by buying a 3.6 997.1 manual either post March 06 or check the engine number to ensure its the newer IMS bearing , I can post that engine number info if you need it.

What is it you want from a 3.8S that a 3.6 997.1 won't offer as we may be able to point you right on some things .
I had my 997.1 for 4 years brought it on 45k sold it on 89k have it borscoped and it was clean as a whistle.
As resigner says most cylinders will get normal age related score thats not the same as borescore caused by the coating off the liners coming off but it is often misdiagnosed as so by people who are not specialists in the field , this only adds fuel to the fire about borescope.
What you MUST do is get an independant PPI and borescope to be sure your getting a good car then follow the risk minimising proceedures widely discussed
millers 10w50 nano oil, let, fully warm up under 3000rpm before hooning.
and then just relax and enjoy 911 ownership like the many many thousands of 997.1 owners do.
I still ended up writting a novel despite resigner covering half of it already.

Grin Grin
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Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
 
  
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Alfaian
Imola


Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 797
Location: S.wales


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had mine scoped at last service at 65k.

It was scored on cylinders 4 and 6. All the rest were clean so, I was utterly terrified of an engine re build what

Anyway, since then my specialist has reassured me that it may have been like it for 20k miles and won't get any worse. And the millers oil will help he said.

I've only ever put a litre of oil in her in my ownership 12k.

No noise , no sooty n/s tailpipe Thumb

Oh, and the plugs were all consistent and were burning fine.
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Steve997
Monza


Joined: 11 Aug 2013
Posts: 213



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Morgan who is without question the go to guy for a ppi won't boroscope any car at PPI stage. They won't do invasive work on a car their customer doesn't actually own.

They also comment that there are enough external clues to bore scoring eg, sooty left pipe, oil consumption, tapping which doesn't go away after 15 seconds on start up to let them know if the car is likely to be a problem. If they think it might be a problem due to obvious external signs of Boro scoring they tell their customer to walk away at that point and save the money an invasive boroscoping would cost and put that towards another car.

Sound sensible advice imo.
 
  
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deMort
Shanghai


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4921
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant offer much advise other than to say i work on these cars .. i see very few with bore score .. a couple year over the years as a rough guess .. didnt see any last year though .

Some shows signs of scoreing on a scope check but go on for years with no problems .. Hartech are the experts to explain this and i always bow to their judgement .. im just a humble mechanic Smile

If its bad then you can hear it and see it on the tail pipes without a scope check but bear in mind a sooty tail pipe can be other things .

Porsche states its got to be 5% or over before they consider it a problem and do something about it .. at least thats what i was told .

I think if i was buying one then i would have a scope check done .. if that was ok then i wouldn,t worry about it .
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t20lle
Newbie


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 41
Location: east yorkshire


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:56 pm    Post subject: Bore Score Reply with quote

Touching wood as typing this-had my 3.8 4S 2 years now on a 2006 plate-was Low Miles when I bought-18k-full history and took the plunge. Not spent a penny as yet but it’s due possibly £1000 this year 2 new tyres, service etc which is just wear and tear. My advice-find the best genuine car you can with the lowest miles and good history within your budget and you should be fine! Good luck with the search👊🏻
 
  
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resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1125



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
resigner wrote:
5% sounds about right, and more importantly, there is bore score which needs a rebuild, and then there is bore score which doesn't get worse and is perfectly fine.

Don't believe the scaremongers, including some dealers (some idiot at RPM Technik who is in modern classics this month saying "don't touch Gen 1 cars, they have to many issues, we don't touch them" for example).

I have a 2007 C2S Manual Cabrio. Awesome car. Has been well looked after. I don't thrash it until it's warmed up, and change the oil every year, instead of the 2 year service. Get a good one, or one which has already had a rebuild, and enjoy an immensely talented car. Get in now while you can still afford a decent one. Prices have been climbing for a while. Mine was £30,000 almost 3 years ago. I couldn't replace it now for less than £35k.

You want, manual, C2S. PSE, Heated Seats, Sports Chrono all all nice but not essential.

It's about condition, not mileage so much. Don't be scared of a good looked after higher mileage car. You should probably get any car checked properly for Bore Score, and try and get a newer IMS car, post late 2005 (check the engine number range!)

it's about time someone really knowledgeable put this all in a pinned thread along with the engine numbers!



Phew perfect saves me writing exactily the same Thumb OP spend less time reading the scare stories remember only the few its happened to rant on the net no one says " drove my 997 today and em well ur nothing went wrong "
the vast vast majority of these cars are sound.
Dont listen to the "they will all need a rebuild at some point" every single car of every marque will need a rebuild at some point in the next 50 years, its a stupid weak arguement and serves no purpose other than to worry potential new owners .

The 996.2 has the same potential issue so you cant negate it by doing that .
you can reduce the risk even further than 5% by buying a 3.6 997.1 manual either post March 06 or check the engine number to ensure its the newer IMS bearing , I can post that engine number info if you need it.

What is it you want from a 3.8S that a 3.6 997.1 won't offer as we may be able to point you right on some things .
I had my 997.1 for 4 years brought it on 45k sold it on 89k have it borscoped and it was clean as a whistle.
As resigner says most cylinders will get normal age related score thats not the same as borescore caused by the coating off the liners coming off but it is often misdiagnosed as so by people who are not specialists in the field , this only adds fuel to the fire about borescope.
What you MUST do is get an independant PPI and borescope to be sure your getting a good car then follow the risk minimising proceedures widely discussed
millers 10w50 nano oil, let, fully warm up under 3000rpm before hooning.
and then just relax and enjoy 911 ownership like the many many thousands of 997.1 owners do.
I still ended up writting a novel despite resigner covering half of it already.

Grin Grin


Your turn to go first next time Phil Razz

OP, at a £25k budget, you won't get low miles, nor should you worry about it. Condition is so important. If it doesn't feel right, walk away. I walked away from a car which was missing a few wheel balancing weights. No idea how long they had been missing, but really shouldn't be the case! Be patient, keep searching, genuine good cars at your budget do come along. If it's had an IMS done, then you go into the 2004/2005 years as well. Lots of them have had it done by now.

Bore Scoring is gradual, an IMS which lets go blows it all to pieces.......... They are both potentially engine rebuilds, but IMS does it without warning.....
 
  
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resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1125



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about this?

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-carrera-997/2006-56-porsche-911-3-8-carrera-2-s-2d-355-bhp/8236934
 
  
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