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DynoMike
Barcelona


Joined: 25 May 2012
Posts: 1472
Location: The Cotswolds

2003 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mezgerite wrote:
DynoMike wrote:
Mezgerite wrote:
Some were using a Dynojet inertia Dyno which gives very American figures!



VERY Grin Thumb


They show more at the wheel on a bike than we see at the gearbox shaft on an engine dyno. When working in the States in the mid-late eighties I met the founders of the company, Dan, Mark and Mike Dobek, who told me that they kept upping the horsepower number until an average bike made the same as a manufacturer quoted at the crank. This was to stop bike owners' chins hitting the floor when showing real horsepower. Mark said that they calculated the radius of gyration of a Harley rear wheel, then used this and the mass to 'approximate' crank power. It calcs out at around 15-18% optimistic on a bike.

The car world use the same DJ scale as far as I'm aware, so ends up being a total cluster ****. We gave up with the DJ system when tuning super bikes and bought a Superflow 902, it's great.


Yes, It was the bike figures from the old American days of inflated OEM figures that did it. Also inertia was ok back when 200bhp was a lot, but for a 500bhp plus engine it like revving up in neutral - there is just not enough load for a meaningful figure.

M



Spot on about the lack of load, this was the reason we swapped (well, one of many), after finding wet piston crowns after multiple pulls which were conducted in 6th gear and on long gearing to try to put as much load on the motor as we could. One proper pull on the engine brake saw a true carbon pattern emerging on the pistons, with no dampness in sight. Perfect.

One more thing to be wary of on DJ dynos, they reward over advanced ignition which can be catastrophic when the motor is subjected to vmax style events.

Sorry OP, will get back on topic now Thumb

Mike
_________________
2003 996 Turbo
Previous toy 1974 Mini 1000
 
  
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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a meeting with a tuning house yesterday and he told me that Dynometers actually have a USA setting giving them 30 % additional readings. Grin
 
  
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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tgdesign wrote:
Hi Gents

I thought I would put it out there. Looking at a stage 2 tune.
kline exhaust 100 cell cats. Done
Gt2 RS intercoolers Done
BMC filter. Done
upgraded clutch Done

Tune Next on the list

Who tuned your 997 turbos ??
Anyone had any issues ??
Were you pleased with the results ??
Where there claims true??
Please let me know your thoughts.

worship




There are 3 tuner considerations that I had when I went through the same decision making process that you seem to currently face TG. With an almost identical setup to yours might I add.

These were

ESmotor
Unicorn
9e

Company Backgrounds

9e and ES motor were actually founded by Porsche enthusiasts . Ken from 9e originates from an IT background and went through the entire process of finding out what parts work best for the best outcome at the most efficient cost. This all happened 7-10 years ago. Moreover, it’s the reason everyone uses 997 GT2 RS intercoolers on the sub 700 bhp 997 996 TT cars as he found out through testing that these are the best bang for buck intercoolers. Ken’s contributions to the Porsche community as an individual member is something that should be recognised as its set a lot of foundational rules for Tuning the Mezger. If you do enough googling you’ll find all his old threads on 6Speed and Pistonheads.

9e also works with Todd from Protomotive who has been renowned for being one of the best Mezger tuner up until recently which is now in dispute depending on who you speak to.

Emre from ES I believe is fully qualified Lawyer and started making noises in Porsche Tuning about 5 years ago iirc. Im not aware of his historic achievements (please add if anyone knows) but his recent achievements in the last 2 years have completely turned the Porsche tuning world upside down.


Rick, Im not aware of his background but I am aware of his unique abilities with the Mezger in that is able to unlock the Stock Motec ECU to hold up to 5 different tunes. Flatfoot shifting iirc and launch control is also possible through Rick on the stock ECU. Hell he can even program launch control to work in reverse on the Tiptronic cars. Moreover , Unicorn are able to tune TCU’s of Tiptronic cars to shift faster etc. These were important considerations of mine as I have a Tiptronic car. His Dyno is also extremely well calibrated and accurate for Porsche cars. In all a very capable guy.


Historically, when 9e brought out their tuning products in early 2010 (fellow members please correct me on the exact year) they held the VMaxx record for a long period of time with their customer cars.

This was until 2016 when ESmotor showcased their clients cars smashing all the UK records for VMaxx and Terminal Velocity by significant margins. This also included a Porsche only Top speed event hosted by this forum. Craig, a member on here had a 2007 911 Turbo 997 and it beat a Koenigsegg at Vmaxx with his ES package. Their achievements go on and on. They are now setting world records.



Discussion

If you were to ever to ask the question of "Which Tuner is better" things get messy as usually you'll have some die hard tuner fan (you know who you are) come and accuse ES motor's packages of being "too fast" and affecting the reliability of the engine . Or they will say they use Water methanol injection , which lowers intake temperatures which means they are cheating...


I (like many other members) found these comments to be extremely distasteful and bullying in nature.

However, do not let this discourage you from entertaining any of the tuning companies I considered . The tuners themselves are all strictly professional and maintain a civilised diplomacy between themselves.

Side Note: There hasn't been a single instance of failure reported about tune provided from ESmotor company. Moreover, ES and 9e entertain the use of Water methanol injection.

The ironic thing is, when 9e stepped on the scene and demonstrated their tuning abilities by breaking records they were met with almost the same backlash of "Your tuning isn't reliable"

So I guess history repeats itself.


Features

After speaking with all three tuners I found they had significantly different tuner offerings . Most of these are set out below. They are all accurate in their power figures so do not worry about what gets delivered.


Unicorn- Launch control, 5 Custom Maps, Mafless Tune if desired. All utilised on the stock ecu.

Rick is based in Manchester so you will have to arrange delivery and pickup of the car.

EsMotor- Fastest tuner,Cobb Accessport, Mafless Tune if desired.

The CobbAccess Port which gets provided with the tune is fantastic. I have one and it enables you to monitor all the parameters of the car and easily log the car. Its also reads and clears fault codes.

9e- Their tune are only part of a process-Boost leak, spark plug change with appropriate gapping. Mafless Tune

9e are the most expensive but don’t let that discourage you as what you get is a lot more than just a tune. Its a service package- Uprated DV,Boost leak check, Spark plug change including correct gaping. These are all absolutely crucial to tuning a Mezger correctly. I wouldn’t entertain a tune from any Tuner without commencing these measures.

I personally chose to take a different path with a different tuner . I won't disclose the company for the moment as they aren't taking on any more Porsche clients but I will say they are world record holders thumbsup

I hope this helps,


Don't forget to enjoy the journey!

Good Luck

Last edited by ok51mon on Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:32 pm; edited 5 times in total
 
  
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116618LN
Trainee


Joined: 30 Apr 2017
Posts: 80
Location: London/Dubai


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, who's your tuner?
_________________
09 997tt - Build in progress
79 911 targa
 
  
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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

116618LN wrote:
So, who's your tuner?


Amended and answered above for you buddy.

Could we have a dm conversation about engine builds. I'd like to pick your brains on your opinions of certain aspects of my build.
 
  
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tgdesign
Silverstone


Joined: 28 Apr 2016
Posts: 146
Location: Birmingham

2006 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok51mon wrote:
tgdesign wrote:
Hi Gents

I thought I would put it out there. Looking at a stage 2 tune.
kline exhaust 100 cell cats. Done
Gt2 RS intercoolers Done
BMC filter. Done
upgraded clutch Done

Tune Next on the list

Who tuned your 997 turbos ??
Anyone had any issues ??
Were you pleased with the results ??
Where there claims true??
Please let me know your thoughts.

worship




There are 3 tuner considerations that I had when I went through the same decision making process that you seem to currently face TG. With an almost identical setup to yours might I add.

These were

ESmotor
Unicorn
9e

Company Backgrounds

9e and ES motor were actually founded by Porsche enthusiasts . Ken from 9e originates from an IT background and went through the entire process of finding out what parts work best for the best outcome at the most efficient cost. This all happened 7-10 years ago. Moreover, it’s the reason everyone uses 997 GT2 RS intercoolers on the sub 700 bhp 997 996 TT cars as he found out through testing that these are the best bang for buck intercoolers. Ken’s contributions to the Porsche community as an individual member is something that should be recognised as its set a lot of foundational rules for Tuning the Mezger. If you do enough googling you’ll find all his old threads on 6Speed and Pistonheads.

9e also works with Todd from Protomotive who has been renowned for being one of the best Mezger tuner up until recently which is now in dispute depending on who you speak to.

Emre from ES I believe is fully qualified Lawyer and started making noises in Porsche Tuning about 5 years ago iirc. Im not aware of his historic achievements (please add if anyone knows) but his recent achievements in the last 2 years have completely turned the Porsche tuning world upside down.


Rick, Im not aware of his background but I am aware of his unique abilities with the Mezger in that is able to unlock the Stock Motec ECU to hold up to 5 different tunes. Flatfoot shifting iirc and launch control is also possible through Rick on the stock ECU. Hell he can even program launch control to work in reverse on the Tiptronic cars. Moreover , Unicorn are able to tune TCU’s of Tiptronic cars to shift faster etc. These were important considerations of mine as I have a Tiptronic car. His Dyno is also extremely well calibrated and accurate for Porsche cars. In all a very capable guy.


Historically, when 9e brought out their tuning products in early 2010 (fellow members please correct me on the exact year) they held the VMaxx record for a long period of time with their customer cars.

This was until in 2016 ago when ESmotor showcased their clients cars smashing all the UK records for VMaxx and Terminal Velocity by significant margins. This also included a Porsche only Top speed event hosted by this forum. Craig, a member on here had a 2007 911 Turbo 997 and it beat a Koenigsegg at Vmaxx with his ES package. Their achievements go on and on. They are now setting world records.



Discussion

If you were to ever to ask the question of "Which Tuner is better" things get messy as usually you'll have some die hard tuner fan (you know who you are) come and accuse ES motor's packages of being "too fast" and affecting the reliability of the engine . Or they will say they use Water methanol injection , which lowers intake temperatures which means they are cheating...


I (like many other members) found these comments to be extremely distasteful and bullying in nature.

However, do not let this discourage you from entertaining any of the tuning companies I considered . The tuners themselves are all strictly professional and maintain a civilised diplomacy between themselves.

Side Note: There hasn't been a single instance of failure reported about tune provided from ESmotor company. Moreover, ES and 9e entertain the use of Water methanol injection.

The ironic thing is, when 9e stepped on the scene and demonstrated their tuning abilities by breaking records they were met with almost the same backlash of "Your tuning isn't reliable"

So I guess history repeats itself.


Features

After speaking with all three tuners I found they had significantly different tuner offerings . Most of these are set out below. They are all accurate in their power figures so do not worry about what gets delivered.


Unicorn- Launch control, 5 Custom Maps, Mafless Tune if desired. All utilised on the stock ecu.

Rick is based in Manchester so you will have to arrange delivery and pickup of the car.

EsMotor- Fastest tuner,Cobb Accessport, Mafless Tune if desired.

The CobbAccess Port which gets provided with the tune is fantastic. I have one and it enables you to monitor all the parameters of the car and easily log the car. Its also reads and clears fault codes.

9e- Their tune are only part of a process-Boost leak, spark plug change with appropriate gapping. Mafless Tune

9e are the most expensive but don’t let that discourage you as what you get is a lot more than just a tune. Its a service package- Uprated DV,Boost leak check, Spark plug change including correct gaping. These are all absolutely crucial to tuning a Mezger correctly. I wouldn’t entertain a tune from any Tuner without commencing these measures.

I personally chose to take a different path with a different tuner . I won't disclose the company for the moment as they aren't taking on any more Porsche clients but I will say they are world record holders thumbsup

I hope this helps,


Don't forget to enjoy the journey!

Good Luck



Many thanks for your input Thumb The 911 magazine did a write up not so long ago on 5 different tuned cars.
It's a shame 9e, and ES cars were not in there.
As those two seem to be top dogs at the moment.
A friend of mine had a 997.2 turbo s tuned by someone who isn't a know Porsche tuner and they blow the motor up
Surprised

So also people to avoid is worth knowing.

Thanks for everone input keep it coming Thumb
 
  
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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double post please delete

Last edited by ok51mon on Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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ok51mon
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tgdesign wrote:
ok51mon wrote:
tgdesign wrote:
Hi Gents

I thought I would put it out there. Looking at a stage 2 tune.
kline exhaust 100 cell cats. Done
Gt2 RS intercoolers Done
BMC filter. Done
upgraded clutch Done

Tune Next on the list

Who tuned your 997 turbos ??
Anyone had any issues ??
Were you pleased with the results ??
Where there claims true??
Please let me know your thoughts.

worship




There are 3 tuner considerations that I had when I went through the same decision making process that you seem to currently face TG. With an almost identical setup to yours might I add.

These were

ESmotor
Unicorn
9e

Company Backgrounds

9e and ES motor were actually founded by Porsche enthusiasts . Ken from 9e originates from an IT background and went through the entire process of finding out what parts work best for the best outcome at the most efficient cost. This all happened 7-10 years ago. Moreover, it’s the reason everyone uses 997 GT2 RS intercoolers on the sub 700 bhp 997 996 TT cars as he found out through testing that these are the best bang for buck intercoolers. Ken’s contributions to the Porsche community as an individual member is something that should be recognised as its set a lot of foundational rules for Tuning the Mezger. If you do enough googling you’ll find all his old threads on 6Speed and Pistonheads.

9e also works with Todd from Protomotive who has been renowned for being one of the best Mezger tuner up until recently which is now in dispute depending on who you speak to.

Emre from ES I believe is fully qualified Lawyer and started making noises in Porsche Tuning about 5 years ago iirc. Im not aware of his historic achievements (please add if anyone knows) but his recent achievements in the last 2 years have completely turned the Porsche tuning world upside down.


Rick, Im not aware of his background but I am aware of his unique abilities with the Mezger in that is able to unlock the Stock Motec ECU to hold up to 5 different tunes. Flatfoot shifting iirc and launch control is also possible through Rick on the stock ECU. Hell he can even program launch control to work in reverse on the Tiptronic cars. Moreover , Unicorn are able to tune TCU’s of Tiptronic cars to shift faster etc. These were important considerations of mine as I have a Tiptronic car. His Dyno is also extremely well calibrated and accurate for Porsche cars. In all a very capable guy.


Historically, when 9e brought out their tuning products in early 2010 (fellow members please correct me on the exact year) they held the VMaxx record for a long period of time with their customer cars.

This was until in 2016 ago when ESmotor showcased their clients cars smashing all the UK records for VMaxx and Terminal Velocity by significant margins. This also included a Porsche only Top speed event hosted by this forum. Craig, a member on here had a 2007 911 Turbo 997 and it beat a Koenigsegg at Vmaxx with his ES package. Their achievements go on and on. They are now setting world records.



Discussion

If you were to ever to ask the question of "Which Tuner is better" things get messy as usually you'll have some die hard tuner fan (you know who you are) come and accuse ES motor's packages of being "too fast" and affecting the reliability of the engine . Or they will say they use Water methanol injection , which lowers intake temperatures which means they are cheating...


I (like many other members) found these comments to be extremely distasteful and bullying in nature.

However, do not let this discourage you from entertaining any of the tuning companies I considered . The tuners themselves are all strictly professional and maintain a civilised diplomacy between themselves.

Side Note: There hasn't been a single instance of failure reported about tune provided from ESmotor company. Moreover, ES and 9e entertain the use of Water methanol injection.

The ironic thing is, when 9e stepped on the scene and demonstrated their tuning abilities by breaking records they were met with almost the same backlash of "Your tuning isn't reliable"

So I guess history repeats itself.


Features

After speaking with all three tuners I found they had significantly different tuner offerings . Most of these are set out below. They are all accurate in their power figures so do not worry about what gets delivered.


Unicorn- Launch control, 5 Custom Maps, Mafless Tune if desired. All utilised on the stock ecu.

Rick is based in Manchester so you will have to arrange delivery and pickup of the car.

EsMotor- Fastest tuner,Cobb Accessport, Mafless Tune if desired.

The CobbAccess Port which gets provided with the tune is fantastic. I have one and it enables you to monitor all the parameters of the car and easily log the car. Its also reads and clears fault codes.

9e- Their tune are only part of a process-Boost leak, spark plug change with appropriate gapping. Mafless Tune

9e are the most expensive but don’t let that discourage you as what you get is a lot more than just a tune. Its a service package- Uprated DV,Boost leak check, Spark plug change including correct gaping. These are all absolutely crucial to tuning a Mezger correctly. I wouldn’t entertain a tune from any Tuner without commencing these measures.

I personally chose to take a different path with a different tuner . I won't disclose the company for the moment as they aren't taking on any more Porsche clients but I will say they are world record holders thumbsup

I hope this helps,


Don't forget to enjoy the journey!

Good Luck



Many thanks for your input Thumb The 911 magazine did a write up not so long ago on 5 different tuned cars.
It's a shame 9e, and ES cars were not in there.
As those two seem to be top dogs at the moment.
A friend of mine had a 997.2 turbo s tuned by someone who isn't a know Porsche tuner and they blow the motor up
Surprised

So also people to avoid is worth knowing.

Thanks for everone input keep it coming Thumb


I doubt you'll get a list of companies to avoid. I would also keep an open mind to Tuning houses that don't specify in one brand of car. Unicorn do not and yet they are the only Tuner Im aware of that are able to store maps on the factory ECU.

As for engine failures, I don't believe anything until I see evidence. And even then I am critical.

In my view, failures would be minimised and almost neutralised if Tuners and members would knowledge share like they used to in the 2000's of the new and exciting developments made.

The saddest thing is, many of individuals who went into tuning as a business used to be friends .


I haven't heard or experienced tuners to avoid.Some comments were made on DMS .

I had a tune from them. However, I cannot comment on the figure that the car put out as I never V boxed it. The owner Rob, is a true enthusiast and I never had any problems. In fact they remedied a mechanical problem I had that no one else could seem to locate.

My parting advice would be. Don't price compare. Go with a tuner who is passionate in what they do. One that doesn't stop talking about their subject matter.

Markski from Markski Tuning springs to mind (another very strong tuner consideration) . The first conversation I had with him lasted almost three hours lol I didn't go with his tune as I wanted a UK based Tuner but if I ever have a comprehensive problem I always pay him for his advice .

Once you've found the correct tuner, pay them whatever they ask. You'll always get more than you pay for.

Thumb

Last edited by ok51mon on Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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e92
Monza


Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Reading


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good unbiased advice. Probably one of the very few that doesn't only promote what tuner they have!
_________________
2001 996 Manual Turbo - Markski Remap, 964 RS LWFW, GT3 gearbox mount, Cargraphic Exhaust, 997 GT2 SSK, Forged DV, PSS10 Coilovers, GT3 front brakes, RSS Engine Mounts, Recaro seats, GT3 front control arms, GT2RS Intercoolers
2008 E92 M3 - Sold
 
  
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K9ng
Monza


Joined: 04 Feb 2015
Posts: 234
Location: Berkshire


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good write up Si, it's easy for people to get lost in following the herd Thumb
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