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awclymm
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Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 11
Location: Cheshire, UK

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Michelin Pilot Sport 4S's - MO Branding? Reply with quote

I posted this on the 991 sub-forum, but I thought it might be useful to ask the question here...

I've been offered a great deal on some Michelin PS 4S's to go on my 991.1 C2S.

The tyres are branded M0, which is the Mercedes approved stamp. Would there be any issue in putting these tyres on my 991?

(Out of warranty, so no concerns in that regard).

Cheers

Andy
 
  
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Phil 997
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Joined: 05 Dec 2015
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Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy, if its out of Warranty then really its your call an its only the OPC under Warranty that would have an issue with it, if you take it to an OPC for work they will note on there advise to you they are not N rated but thats all. many inc me are running tyres non N rated and MPS4 are a very good tyre good grip and low road noise. Thumb
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awclymm
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Location: Cheshire, UK

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks - specifically, it's the Mercedes Approved bit that I was asking about though... are the "M0" tyres just a standard PS4S, or are they different in some way??
 
  
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Phil 997
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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres an interesting discussion about this very topic .

http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/audi-ao-tyres-whats-the-difference.148166/

I tend to go with this post about it but have a read your self .

Its to do with the tyre manufacturers producing tyres marked for the brands they fit on as OEM tyres, they do massive deals with car manufacturers to get their tyres on cars and when the deals are agreed they will produce x amount of tyres marked with the manufacturers designation. Most will go to the manufacturer but part of the deal is x amount will made available to the public to buy as replacements. Continental say that the first three sets of tyres on alot of cars will be what they came with from the factory as the owner will want to keep it original. After that the car starts getting to an age where price becomes more of an issue for the tyre purchaser and depending on the owner (if they are even the original buyer at that point) the tyre brand and model starts to become a non issue over price.

Car manufacturers have lots of different idents for OEM tyres, AO is Audi Option, MO Mercedes Option, a Star on the side wall is BMW, N0 N1 and N2 is Porsche.

The tyres are the same the only difference is molds they come from though have the OEM designation, i.e. the SC3 with AO, MO or the star will all be built with the same construction and rubber just the mold has the emblem on it.
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awclymm
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Location: Cheshire, UK

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil, thanks - that's very interesting, yet contradictory at the same time!

The conclusion appears to be that the branding is purely a marketing exercise, yet there is a Porsche enthusiast on that forum saying that the N0, N1 etc. branded tyres ARE different from the standard tyres - he says they are stiffer sidewalls etc.

At the moment, nearly all of the people that have fitted 4S's to their Porsche's have gone with the standard tyre, as the N0 version is yet to become readily available. On the basis that the "standard" 4S gets such rave reviews from everybody that has used it, I guess I will be safe in putting the M0 branded tyres on my vehicle then....
 
  
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Phil 997
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Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 11306
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awclymm wrote:
Phil, thanks - that's very interesting, yet contradictory at the same time!

The conclusion appears to be that the branding is purely a marketing exercise, yet there is a Porsche enthusiast on that forum saying that the N0, N1 etc. branded tyres ARE different from the standard tyres - he says they are stiffer sidewalls etc.

At the moment, nearly all of the people that have fitted 4S's to their Porsche's have gone with the standard tyre, as the N0 version is yet to become readily available. On the basis that the "standard" 4S gets such rave reviews from everybody that has used it, I guess I will be safe in putting the M0 branded tyres on my vehicle then....


I am with you mate on that thinking and had assumed the Porsche guy was a sandal with socks wearer as only that type would be messing with stiffness of different type of side wall of the same type of tyre Grin Grin
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911UK
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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awclymm wrote:
Phil, thanks - that's very interesting, yet contradictory at the same time!

The conclusion appears to be that the branding is purely a marketing exercise, yet there is a Porsche enthusiast on that forum saying that the N0, N1 etc. branded tyres ARE different from the standard tyres - he says they are stiffer sidewalls etc.

At the moment, nearly all of the people that have fitted 4S's to their Porsche's have gone with the standard tyre, as the N0 version is yet to become readily available. On the basis that the "standard" 4S gets such rave reviews from everybody that has used it, I guess I will be safe in putting the M0 branded tyres on my vehicle then....


A MO designed Tyre is not optimised for a Porsche 911, it may be marketing for the other manufacturers but not for Porsche.

To answer the N rated question, let me refer you to the response by a Michelin Tyre expert http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=950891#950891

Michelin Tyres wrote:
ragpicker wrote:
WOW! What a starter for 10! Great reply!

Now then, N rated tyres.....? Over the years I've used a variety of tyres and struggle to notice any difference between N and non-N rated tyres. Even at the limit on the track I have been unable to produce a difference in visceral feel between the two.

Are there any genuine benefits to using N rated rubber over the non-N michelin tyre?

Many thanks.


Smile
Well... "N" rating and general homologation is that $64k question..

And to be honest, a lot of the time, could we feel much difference , probably not..
Ok, so back in the mists of time when earlier 911's were a little bit more tricky to drive, the "n" rating and homologation sometimes gave Porsche and the tyre manufacturers, the ability to tune a product to specifically give the car a type of handling behavior that suited with the characteristics of the car, e.g. it could be a tuned front or rear tyre to re-balance the car.

With most homologations, it's a filter process. We will start with a size that the manufacturer wants, and undergo extensive testing, both at our tracks and their own facilities. This will then lead to a direction or correction that will then lead to other solutions being tried, and or developed.

From a manufacturers point of view, if we make a specific size and pattern, then tune it away from the "standard" tyre, we end up with a product that needs to be differentiatied from the standard tyre, hence we mark them, "N" Porsche, "*" BMW & "MO" Mercedes for example.

The tweaks can be anything from compound to construction to physical size and shape (often to fit under the arch or clear suspension) so the changes can be slight to major.

The best comparison is like saying a standard tyre is an "off the peg suit" where as the tuned tyre is "Bespoke tailoring". Hence with an "N" marked tyre, it will have been extensively tested by Porsche and the tyre manufacturer to get the absolute best out of the car and tyre combination.

So, whilst we might not feel a huge difference on road or track, normally the "N" rated tyre will always have more potential left in it. There is the odd occasion where a new product will be better, but if it hasn't got that all important "N" rating, its a tough call. Especially if your car is under warranty, as some Porsche main dealers will not entertain a non "n" rated tyre on a car if you have a warranty claim.

We reckon that 90% or drivers use only 10% of a tyres potential for 90% of their driving.
Then again that's probably not applicable to your average Porsche driver

Jamie

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awclymm
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Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 11
Location: Cheshire, UK

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please see my post above - the N0 version of this tyre isn't readily available, but plenty of enthusiasts have fitted the non-N0 (i.e. standard) PS4S's to their vehicles with outstanding results.

My question was whether or not the M0 version is any different to the "standard" PS4S. Seems as if the difference, if any, is highly marginal.
 
  
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T8
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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Location: Kent


PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not the sort of driver that's ever going to get anywhere near the limits of any tyre on any car but I've always felt that there must be something specific about a tyre that is approved by Porsche for fitment on a 911.

Few cars have as little weight over the front wheels and so much over the rear so if Porsche have tested and approved a tyre to match that specific requirement I'm happy to follow their lead.
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Phil 997
Shanghai


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 11306
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has been discussed so many times , do you fit an old tech N rated tyre or do you fit the latest tech none N rated tyre, and knowing that the tyre manufactures are constantly developing newer better tyres versus Porsche who really deep down only give a stuff about new car sales therefore are very very slow to react to improving the spec of tyres fitted to older models I am afraid I am going with the latest spec tyre over an N rated time every time Thumb Thumb

I also agree that the differences between a tyre thats MO or N or made for BMW is going to be marginal as if it was more than marginal it wouldnt remain for example a MPS4 therefore it would need its own name ,which we see with some Bmw tyres . Thumb
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Last edited by Phil 997 on Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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awclymm
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Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 11
Location: Cheshire, UK

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My specific question was not the perennial N0 / non N0 debate - my question was whether or not it is possible to fit a M0 tyre (i.e. Mercedes approved) on a Porsche.
 
  
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Phil 997
Shanghai


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Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit I have no idea whats on my car as if I want MPS4 I will look for the size I want and buy from the cheapest supplier, I genuinely have no idea or interest whether they have the code for MERC, BMW or SKODA or anyone else on them. Thumb if you tell me where to look for the code just out of interest I will go and see Thumb
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MaxA
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 905
Location: Helsinki


PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a good question.

I'm still a bit worried about running non-rated tyres as I saw to my horror a set of correct sized but non-rated rear Pirelli's that had just come off a 991.1: they were two weeks old and badly cracked.

Apparently that big engine hanging back there presents some unique challenges for the tyre makers.... Dont know
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awclymm
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Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 11
Location: Cheshire, UK

2012 Porsche 991 Carrera S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
I have to admit I have no idea whats on my car as if I want MPS4 I will look for the size I want and buy from the cheapest supplier, I genuinely have no idea or interest whether they have the code for MERC, BMW or SKODA or anyone else on them. Thumb if you tell me where to look for the code just out of interest I will go and see Thumb


https://m.michelin.co.uk/learnShareDetail/tyreMarkings101
 
  
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Phil 997
Shanghai


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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK just been and looked , got some strange looks as I peered closely at the tyres Floor they dont say anying other than extra load the size and Michelin etc .

I read the link and this particularly caught my attention and would appear to dismiss the myth that the tyre was designed for a specific car or that the engine was in the back causing some issues , as very few VW now are rear engined and the VW toe rag isnt even a sports car.

N0, N1, N2, N…Specific marking for PORSCHE vehicles (+Volkswagen Touareg)

and also so MO means Merc but thats a huge range of cars from A class to SL55 etc, all different sizes and shapes , so really how can it be designed for the specific needs of a car , I am more inclined to go with the guys comment its about marketing and commercial relationships and not much else.

So I really dont know what to say any more Dont know
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awclymm
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2012 Porsche 991 Carrera S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you have the "vanilla" tyres - and thanks for taking the time to look and all of your comments here.

I agree with your final statement, I remain convinced it is all marketing hype.
 
  
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MJA911
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in the tend to stick with N rated camp as I would have thought the 911 is different enough with weight distribution etc for the N rating to be a little more than just marketing. I remember with the PS2, the N rated front tyres were 87Y and standard were 91Y, which I think makes sense given less weight distribution over the front axle?

That said, the PS4S in particular is a pain in the backside for not being N rated, I could be tempted to put vanilla ones on but I wouldn't put a set on with another manufacturers approval.
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awclymm
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2012 Porsche 991 Carrera S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Manufacturer's approval is just that - their approval of a tyre, NOT a statement that the tyre has been specifically and uniquely developed for their range of vehicles. (And as correctly pointed out earlier in this thread, Mercedes have a large number of cars in their range with widely differing characteristics and performance).

I am going to put Michelin PS4S M0 tyres on the front of my 991 C2S - they've got to be better than the 5+ year old Continentals that are on there currently!![/u]
 
  
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Phil 997
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2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awclymm wrote:
A Manufacturer's approval is just that - their approval of a tyre, NOT a statement that the tyre has been specifically and uniquely developed for their range of vehicles. (And as correctly pointed out earlier in this thread, Mercedes have a large number of cars in their range with widely differing characteristics and performance).

I am going to put Michelin PS4S M0 tyres on the front of my 991 C2S - they've got to be better than the 5+ year old Continentals that are on there currently!![/u]


Thumb Thumb Thumb You will also find less road noise with the Michelins over the Contis Thumb
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MaxA
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may all be marketing, but I couldn't find the article on tyrereviews.co.uk that discussed this very issue and suggested that tyres were designed and built to manufacturer specifications - although I imagine that some cooperations were closer than others. Maybe I'm being sensitive about the 911, as I've run all sorts of tyres on other cars without "ratings". I would add though that some tyres just seem to work, and others don't, depending on the car.

It's a bit like discussions on brake pads: all the packaging I've opened in the last 10 years is marked "for race applications only" and yet when it come to an MOT, they don't inspect the pads themselves, they just check that the brakes actually work ... Dont know Question
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