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C4-STORM
Hockenheim


Joined: 29 Aug 2017
Posts: 625
Location: Hampshire

2004 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:59 pm    Post subject: Turbo vs C4S Reply with quote

Firstly, I would love a Turbz and the Mezger lump obviously has its advantages. However Scratch Chin

At recent meets 2 separate other forum members (on different occasions) have commented that they preferred their 4S to their Turbo!

I was surprised to hear this..

So taking all factors into account (including cost) which would get your vote

Question

Interested to hear other members views on this Thumb
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T8
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Location: Kent


PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without meaning to sound like a broken record .........

"You can drive a Turbo like a Carrera but, when conditions allow, you can't drive a Carrera like a Turbo".

Very Happy

Seriously, for me the above sums up the difference between the two. 90% of the time on UK roads it wouldn't matter which you were driving. For the other 10% the Turbo would 'US president' a Carrera with its sheer Drive

I get it that some people claim they don't like the power delivery of a Turbo but the arm stretching sensation is only there at the top of the torque curve and is often only what non-owners have experienced whilst the driver is showing off. Owners of the cars actually revel in the tractability that the whole torque gives and don't need to use the 'boost' much of the time.

The above is one of the reasons that you will hear that the auto box (even the Tip') is so well suited to the car.

Don't get me wrong, I really like and fully respect the 996 Carrera - especially the looks of the 'S' - but for a bit more money the Turbo presents so much bang for your bucks and the kudos associated with the turbo script on the rump is a big + too.

Many will say they prefer the aural delights that can be had from a Carrera over the often under-estimated noise of the Turbo and, whilst I can understand that, I've personally always preferred the stealth mode. Wink

So much depends on what any individual actually wants from their 911.

eg. My 996C4 suited my needs for over 3 years and I originally only went 996 Turbo to relieve myself of the paranoia associated with the M96 motor. 997 Turbo was a natural progression for me as I wanted something a bit newer and 3 years ago a 997.1 Turbo was far cheaper to buy than a Gen 2 Carrera S. Going forward I'd happily return to a Carrera but it would have to be a 991.1S.

I'm looking forward to some great discussions on this thread. thumbsup
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C4-STORM
Hockenheim


Joined: 29 Aug 2017
Posts: 625
Location: Hampshire

2004 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes sense and pretty much sums up what for me would be the expectation.

I have to admit that I was fairly surprised at the comments made..
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msaif996
Trainee


Joined: 08 Dec 2010
Posts: 60
Location: 997.1 Turbo Conv. 6MT


PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first Porsche was a 996 C4S Coupe 6MT which I sold a while back. Years later I now have a 997.1 Turbo Convertible 6MT.
The rear of the 996 C4S is by far the best looking 911 in my opinion. It was such a special car which handled brilliantly and it was more than the sum of its parts. At the time when I bought my C4S I was not interested in the 996 Turbo because I didn’t need the extra power and I much preferred the look of the C4S. The 997 Turbo, however, is on a completely different league to the C4S power wise. It really is a beast and I’m sure the 996 Turbo with a less powerful engine will also be a huge difference to the C4S.
The Turbo is a range topper and a beast of a car. You get what you pay for and there is a reason it’s a lot more to buy both new and used. Over time values hold up better than Carreras. The driving experience is so different due to the nature of a Turbo car vs. naturally aspirated. You really out to drive both to decide and I’m sure you will be in no doubt once you do so.
 
  
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FRP
Barcelona


Joined: 30 Apr 2014
Posts: 1433
Location: Middlesex


PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I have never had a 4S but own a 996 turbo

I would consider what your end goal is. For me it is about the smile factor, sheer grunt, being a little different ( modified ) and having the imho the car I can afford or want! My mod ideas keep coming into my mind tho

Running costs for me are not bad on the turbo but I have no comparisons

Remember when you want the power the turbo can deliver. A 4S cannot. Ask yourself is this something you could live with in the longer term?

In summary. Go for the turbo. What is really stopping you apart from 2 owners at 2 meetings?
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cheshire911
Estoril


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3750



PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Turbo for the point-and-shoot ballistic missile capability, the torque and power that's always on hand. And of course the pedigree of the bullet-proof Mezger dry-sump unit. I faced the choice and glad I made the decision for a Turbo.
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INWB
Monza


Joined: 02 May 2016
Posts: 172
Location: Leicestershire


PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mezger engine, huge power and the opportunity to buy the 911 that sits pretty much at the top of the pile outside the GT cars.

The turbo is a compelling proposition.

However, on UK roads it is unlikely that you can really take advantage of it. The C4S isn't exactly slow, shares lots of turbo bits and is N/A in a world that is now full of turbos.

Oh, and the 996 C4S has the best arse of any of Porsche this side of a 994 (imo).

Both stunning cars in different ways.
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apollokre1d
Sepang


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2814
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've owned both, a 997C4S and now a 997.1 Turbo and there is nothing I miss about the C4S.

Admittedly I did miss the sound at first but the turbo has soo many advantages over the carrera and with the europipe exhaust it sounds good Smile
 
  
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galahad
Silverstone


Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Posts: 123



PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting topic. Before my C4S (which is my first Porsche) I had a 2015 Audi S8 and before that, a 2013 F10 M5 - both nigh on 600bhp turbocharged monsters, so I have been very used to endless torque and big power. The problem I found was, that both cars were so effortlessly fast, that day to day, the performance was quite frustrating as you simply couldn’t use it or when you did, you faced ending up on the front page of the Daily Fail or in prison! (Or dead!).

My Porsche journey started off by looking at 718 Cayman and I was very very close to ordering a GTS - i went and drove a well specced manual S at the PEC and whilst it impressed me, something was missing.

I was then told by a mate that his boss was looking to offload a few cars from his collection including a 996 C4S and a 996 Turbo S. I’d always loved the look of the C4S but also had a real soft spot for Turbos, having had my first ‘wow that’s quick’ moment in a then new X50 996 Turbo at a PH meet, and then my first (indicated) 200mph in a 996 Ruf R Turbo at a very early Vmax day.

It took me 10 mins in the C4S to know that it was the one for me and the noise is a big part of that, but I also love the fact that I can use all of the revs a lot of the time and not face prison or death! It’s the slowest and least expensive car I’ve owned for many years (the wife’s 335D XDrive is faster FFS!), but I LOVE it!

If it was a daily or was used for big euro jaunts, then the torque of a turbo would appeal I think, but I’d miss the noise!

Incidentally, the guy I bought from regrets selling the C4S but not the Turbo...

Horses for courses - both fab cars, but as said above, the world has gone turbo now and will soon be fully electric, so I will enjoy a NA Manual car for as long as I can! Must stop looking at 997 GT3s....
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C4-STORM
Hockenheim


Joined: 29 Aug 2017
Posts: 625
Location: Hampshire

2004 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

galahad wrote:
Interesting topic. Before my C4S (which is my first Porsche) I had a 2015 Audi S8 and before that, a 2013 F10 M5 - both nigh on 600bhp turbocharged monsters, so I have been very used to endless torque and big power. The problem I found was, that both cars were so effortlessly fast, that day to day, the performance was quite frustrating as you simply couldn’t use it or when you did, you faced ending up on the front page of the Daily Fail or in prison! (Or dead!).

My Porsche journey started off by looking at 718 Cayman and I was very very close to ordering a GTS - i went and drove a well specced manual S at the PEC and whilst it impressed me, something was missing.

I was then told by a mate that his boss was looking to offload a few cars from his collection including a 996 C4S and a 996 Turbo S. I’d always loved the look of the C4S but also had a real soft spot for Turbos, having had my first ‘wow that’s quick’ moment in a then new X50 996 Turbo at a PH meet, and then my first (indicated) 200mph in a 996 Ruf R Turbo at a very early Vmax day.

It took me 10 mins in the C4S to know that it was the one for me and the noise is a big part of that, but I also love the fact that I can use all of the revs a lot of the time and not face prison or death! It’s the slowest and least expensive car I’ve owned for many years (the wife’s 335D XDrive is faster FFS!), but I LOVE it!

If it was a daily or was used for big euro jaunts, then the torque of a turbo would appeal I think, but I’d miss the noise!

Incidentally, the guy I bought from regrets selling the C4S but not the Turbo...

Horses for courses - both fab cars, but as said above, the world has gone turbo now and will soon be fully electric, so I will enjoy a NA Manual car for as long as I can! Must stop looking at 997 GT3s....


Really interesting take on this.

One forum member I was chatting to commented that he regrets selling his C4S and the other still has both a C4s and a Turbo and said whatever you do - 'don't sell it!' I prefer mine to my turbo..

The reasons given in discussion were driveability. I know the rear end is good on the C4S, it still carries that retro feel but tbh that wouldn't be a deal breaker for me as I love the Turbo looks over and above if I am honest. Especially the rear tailgate/spoiler. And then the performance..

So whilst this may seem to some as a 'no brainer' or stupid question it has been triggered not by me but the experience of others.

I have not driven a Turbo so I am not in a position to make an educated comment either way.

Some criticize the 4WD whilst others love it.. Question

Then there is what appears to be the increasing cost differential.. Question
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T8
General
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 14707
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C4-STORM wrote:


... One forum member I was chatting to commented that he regrets selling his C4S and the other still has both a C4s and a Turbo and said whatever you do - 'don't sell it!' I prefer mine to my turbo..

The reasons given in discussion were driveability. I know the rear end is good on the C4S, it still carries that retro feel but tbh that wouldn't be a deal breaker for me as I love the Turbo looks over and above if I am honest. Especially the rear tailgate/spoiler. And then the performance..

So whilst this may seem to some as a 'no brainer' or stupid question it has been triggered not by me but the experience of others.

I have not driven a Turbo so I am not in a position to make an educated comment either way.

Some criticize the 4WD whilst others love it.. Question

Then there is what appears to be the increasing cost differential.. Question



The only way for you to know for sure is to drive a Turbo yourself.

The 'driveability' thing is real but what this actually means is that for 90% of the time owners are frustrated that they can't actually use the extra bhp as things like slower traffic and tight corners come up much more quickly.

They're both 4wd. I'd argue that it's more relevant to have it on a Turbo.

The cost differential has always been about 35%. It says a lot that I've never known anyone quibble about that size of premium. Very Happy
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T8
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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Location: Kent


PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This old thread might be of interest.

==> Created when I first started thinking about a 996C4 to 996T change

Alternatively just read below for the conclusion I reached on the day I picked my 996 Turbo up.
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Last edited by T8 on Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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T8
General
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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Location: Kent


PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
Thanks to all that contributed to this thread and to those that I've had various 'PM' discussions with. Thumb

400 miles into Turbo ownership and 2 hours after my first 'proper' solo drive I now feel qualified to answer my own question. Grin

The 74 miles that I drove this morning took in all of my local fun routes (50/50 A and B roads, no dual carriageways) and allowed me to make a direct comparison between my old 996C4 and my 'new' toy.

These are the most relevant.

1. The 'balance' that's achieved by keeping the NA car at 4,000 rpm+ can be done in the Turbo at 2,800 ie. just when 0.1 bar is starting to show.

2. The 'kick' that a NA car gives between 4,500 and 6,000 rpm is matched between 2,800 and 4,000. It's what happens then that really brings home the difference between the two cars. At 4000 rpm most of the additional 100 bhp is just 'there' .......... instantly. The final 10% takes a little bit longer to come but by that time it's normally time to back off anyway.

3. The other major difference is noticed when slowing down. iirc the Turbo weighs in at 100kg heavier than the C4 (not the C4S). Under most circumstances the extra weight is not noticeable but under braking it most definitely is! The combination of the extra weight, lack of engine braking - and the fact that you're going quicker between the corners - brings home to me why these things are renowned for eating pads (and discs Surprised ).

4. Handling wise there's probably very little between the two, as both are 4wd, but the Turbo seems to absorb the bumps better. It feels 'softer' but this may just be because my 'T' is 2 years newer than the C4 was and it's also done a few miles less. Dont know .

In summary I am already starting to see why the Turbo is held in such high regard by so many people, including those far more experienced in driving fast cars than me. It's not just the rate that these monsters can cover cross-country distances, it's the ease with which they do it.

The reason for my original post was my concern that the fantastic 'driveability' of the C4 would not be matched if I changed to a Turbo and that the 'cost to change' may not offer the same Very Happy 's per £.

After only 19 days I'm pleased to report ........... Cloud 9

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C4-STORM
Hockenheim


Joined: 29 Aug 2017
Posts: 625
Location: Hampshire

2004 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The comparison being C4S and Turbo..

I didn't source a C4 as I wanted the wide body, Turbo wheels, brakes, bumpers etc.
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911TEL
Barcelona


Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 1401
Location: Inverness & Kazakhstan

2011 Porsche 997 Turbo S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer lies here ....

“I have not driven a Turbo so I am not in a position to make an educated comment either way. “

I was reading through your earlier comments and it was obvious to me that you hadn’t .... this is essential ....drive them both , then , you can decide ...
Of course all owners thoughts are great but do this and I could almost bank on knowing what your thought are after that ...

Not many people don’t like to have the ability to step on the throttle and do what the Turbo does ......
You can always drive in ‘Normal’ if you want ....

Do it , then come back and let’s us know your thoughts ....
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T8
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C4-STORM wrote:


The comparison being C4S and Turbo..

I didn't source a C4 as I wanted the wide body, Turbo wheels, brakes, bumpers etc.



C4S v Turbo = nearly all the weight with c95 less bhp.

My experience was with a C4 but as it has the same engine as your C4S I deemed that my comments were valid.
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shabs
Monza


Joined: 28 Mar 2014
Posts: 179
Location: Teddington


PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I drove both the turbo and the c4s very recently and prior to that had a c2s and a bentley gt sport.

I personally found the turbo a bit of a let down, both on the noise front and drive-ability....I have no doubt that on a racetrack or mile upon mile of empty country roads a turbo would be blisteringly quick....but I live in South West London and spend most of my time driving in and around London, where the motoring benefits of a 997 turbo or indeed a Bentley GT are completely voided.

I love the sound of the c4s with its PSE and sports chrono plus. I also appreciate the better tech to be found in the c4s that I purchased over a 997.1 turbo.

Its a great car to drive, feels very involved right through the range and just ticked too many boxes for me to ignore compared to a turbo....where in all honesty I'd be spending thousands on an after market exhaust to get any kind of decent sound (the forums are full of this info), swapping out the useless and antiquated PCM 2, changing to a paddle shift wheel, worrying about the mileage/future value etc..etc..

We all have our reasons but for me the c4s was the car that suited my lifestyle and driving environment the most. It's a stunningly good looking car that for me, needs to be a daily driver with the odd blast and/or weekend away thrown in.

As much as I'd like to be...I'm no racing driver...so not hugely interested in the extreme limits of handling or 0.3 or 0.4 seconds speed differentials and will probably never turn off the traction control!!.... finally, having suffered huge depreciation on a Bentley GT owning ANY kind of Porsche makes a welcome change Very Happy
 
  
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paul987
Kyalami


Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 1840
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly I love them both...

If it was 2003 again I would take the turbo... But..and as always it's a big butt with a red stripe across it...

Now in 2018 I would take the C4s... my reasoning being..
1. The price gap has widened between them both (or appears to have on decent examples)

2. As they both get older... I would imagine the turbo engine would be under more stress mechanically so as the miles creep up will this result in more turbo engine failures? Dont know I've not heard of many higher mileage M96 engines failing or needing rebuilds... so the reliability issues may be flipped and in financial terms £ for £ the m96 vs mezger engines would cost a lot more to rebuild Dont know

3. N/a 911 sound better when being given full beans.

-1. Turbo's are insanely fast

-2. It not a 911 turbo... That's a better answer if a guy asks you in the pub "is it a turbo?"

4. You can just tell the bloke in the pub who asked is your C4s "a turbo" yes it is.... if he knew he wouldn't have asked
Laughing
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plynchy
Imola


Joined: 13 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The turbo does everything the C4S can do and more.

I have questioned the point of my turbo on many occasions as it really is difficult (and illegal in most cases) to use even 8/10th of it's power on public roads (and they are pretty quiet round here), my old E46 M3 was way easier to exploit.

That said, when you do get chance to have a bit of a hoon, it's just ridiculous and effortless, it never seems to be stressed, certainly not in my hands anyway. Always said it's got bigger balls than I'll ever have (and that includes use on a few track days).
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C4-STORM
Hockenheim


Joined: 29 Aug 2017
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2004 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
C4-STORM wrote:


The comparison being C4S and Turbo..

I didn't source a C4 as I wanted the wide body, Turbo wheels, brakes, bumpers etc.



C4S v Turbo = nearly all the weight with c95 less bhp.

My experience was with a C4 but as it has the same engine as your C4S I deemed that my comments were valid.


Thumb All and any comments are interesting to read.

The C4S being lower, wider and sharing the running gear of the Turbo is surely a different driving experience to a C4 though, no Question

And then the looks..
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