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ragpicker
Paul Ricard


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3488
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Demort - I'm sure you boys don't use the cam tools, I imagine its pretty easy to eyeball and tell they are bob on before and after taking the tensioners out? Especially if you've done loads of them Dont know
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deMort
Shanghai


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4607
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ragpicker wrote:
@Demort - I'm sure you boys don't use the cam tools, I imagine its pretty easy to eyeball and tell they are bob on before and after taking the tensioners out? Especially if you've done loads of them Dont know


Cough .. no comment cough .. " Crank pulley locking pin " cough crank flywheel locateing pin in a certain position on a certain web cough ..

Cough .. cam tool .. cough sure i had one once cough ..

Im sorry i have a cold .


Always use the tools gentlemans Very Happy
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7584
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marky911 wrote:
I'm happier with it added but some, like infrasilver aren't. That's fine, it's just personal preference.


It's not strictly personal preference. I like a little bit of sealant and have done through my life on engines as I think it does add something to gaskets even on a brand new surface. I did try some sealant on an 996 RMS once and it made it really hard work to install, it kept popping back out due to it being under pressure and now lubricated with sealant.
I came back to it thinking I had made fit but it had come out at an angle again, I bought a new seal and cleaned all the sealant off the face and I've never had an issue installing one without sealant.
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2455


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
Cough .. cam tool .. cough sure i had one once cough ..


Hmmm.......

Stupid question - but I'm assuming I need to lock both ends of the engine, so need 2x camlock tools?

Some of the how-to's only show locking the gearbox end accessible bank 2
 
  
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2455


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Isn't cam locking tool 6mm thick? I know it is for the 3.6 as I used to make them.

If so, you might want to use 3 pieces of 2mm plate.

Edit: Although I suppose if your 2mm offset (step) is correct, then one face of the cam slot will sit flat against the tool.


Ta I'll double check when I flip the plugs out
 
  
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alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 13302
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumb
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Marky911
Albert Park


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1531



PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
Marky911 wrote:
I'm happier with it added but some, like infrasilver aren't. That's fine, it's just personal preference.


It's not strictly personal preference. I like a little bit of sealant and have done through my life on engines as I think it does add something to gaskets even on a brand new surface. I did try some sealant on an 996 RMS once and it made it really hard work to install, it kept popping back out due to it being under pressure and now lubricated with sealant.
I came back to it thinking I had made fit but it had come out at an angle again, I bought a new seal and cleaned all the sealant off the face and I've never had an issue installing one without sealant.


Totally agree infra. Thumb

As I wrote the bulk of my initial reply I was talking only about the IMS cover. It's not until I read Wasz' post again I realised he mentioned RMS too, hence my quickly added "PS" at the end.

As you say, the RMS and it's bore should be squeaky clean and bone dry.
I'm sure mine would have been. It wasn't actually fitted at the point of my IMS photo.
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7584
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumb no worries just didn't want anyone to struggle with fitting an RMS, I experimented and failed with sealant.
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deMort
Shanghai


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4607
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For wasz ..

I havent got anything on an early 996 so this is from a 997 05 so same engine but later type cam locking tool .

From the crank pulley (drivebelt ) then bank 1 is left so n/s and bank 2 is right so o/s .

Right mouse click on the picture and select view for a larger image of the picture
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2455


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Demort! I do need two cam locking tools then.

I notice in those instructions they do not remove the tensioner for bank 4-6 (under the a/c compressor?)

I also watched this (similar age engine) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRmB53bALf8 and he does not remove this third tensioner either.

I take from that it it not necessary to remove this. But I can't understand why.....surely that tension would cause the ims to be pulled over to that side?
 
  
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5821
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasz wrote:
Thanks Demort! I do need two cam locking tools then.

I notice in those instructions they do not remove the tensioner for bank 4-6 (under the a/c compressor?)

I also watched this (similar age engine) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRmB53bALf8 and he does not remove this third tensioner either.

I take from that it it not necessary to remove this. But I can't understand why.....surely that tension would cause the ims to be pulled over to that side?


The two tensioners being removed both operate on chains at the end of the IMS where the bearing is fitted. The third one which isn't removed operates at the other end of the IMS so will not exert anything like the force at this end.
I have the workshop manuals for this engine, PM me if you are interested.

MC
 
  
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1200



PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add to what MC said

The chain tensioner under the ac pump on bank 2 if left in situ will add comfort that no cam chain jump can happen on that bank. You cannot lock both banks simultaneously (well I never tried it anyway).

Sooo essentially you will lock the cams on bank 1 only when the crank is rotated so that the slots in those cams are in a vertical position. Watch out though because the cam end slots are offset and the proper tool is milled to fit only one way so the crank may need to be turned if the offset in the cams when vertical are 180deg out
 
  
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2455


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
The two tensioners being removed both operate on chains at the end of the IMS where the bearing is fitted. The third one which isn't removed operates at the other end of the IMS so will not exert anything like the force at this end.
I have the workshop manuals for this engine, PM me if you are interested.

MC


Aha, this now makes sense. Thanks - I have the workshop manual for my car, I didn't find the IMS cover removal bit - I had just been looking at transmission removal etc. Will have a harder look....

Harv wrote:
Sooo essentially you will lock the cams on bank 1 only when the crank is rotated so that the slots in those cams are in a vertical position.


Penny has dropped.

I am setting the engine to TDC of Bank 1. I only need to make one tool to lock bank 1 - bank 2 will not move at all because the crank pulley is locked at that end, and the IMS support / bearing is not being loosened at that end. Locking bank 2 is pointless.

- is that correct?

Harv wrote:

Watch out though because the cam end slots are offset and the proper tool is milled to fit only one way so the crank may need to be turned if the offset in the cams when vertical are 180deg out


So when I pop the cam plug out of bank 1 (bottom left rear near waterpump) and look at the end of the camshaft, the slot should lookm like this and my tool fit this:



I do not need to pop the plug off bank 2 or lock it for the reasons above.

-----
Question (I know, I should just follow instructions and not ask...)... bank 2 is not at its TDC. There will be some force acting - will this not be trying to rotate the IMS, which has been de-tensioned relative to the locked crank? Could the IMS not rotate here and jump a tooth relative to the crank - or will it not do this given that chain is short?



-----

Thanks a lot everyone, this is absolutely amazing help, there is so much misinformation about this job on the internet and made harder by the M96 being installed in th more popular 986 the other way around.
 
  
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5821
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I have read you are unlikely to have a problem with the chain jumping due to the very long wrap around of the chains on the sprockets on the early 5 chain engines. Much riskier on the later 3 chain ones where it is only over the exhaust camshafts for about 90 degrees.

MC
 
  
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deMort
Shanghai


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4607
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you have got it all now .

But Just to confirm ..

you cant lock both bank cams at the same time , if the tool doesnt fit then you rotate the engine as only one side can be locked at a time .. they are off set .

If you cannot fit the cam tool and the crank pin then the timing is out .. its unlikely but as its possible then ill just say at that point stop and ask for advise .

DO NOT rotate the engine backwards , so clock wise only , if you miss the crank pin or cam tool positions then rotate again .. this was in our instructions and i havent questioned it .. its just something we do .

Bank 2 (a/c compressor ) doesnt need to be locked or tensioner removed .. it cant jump as the IMS shaft cant move that far .. its about 2 feet long and is supported at the a/c end .. basically dont worry about it , bank 1 is locked at the cams so it is supported there .

You remove bank 1 tensioner AND the IMS chain tensioner so no tension at the gearbox end.

Carefully read the instructions i posted as they ARE the instructions that i would read if i was doing a job for the first time and they do say how to do the job Smile .

If you are at all worryed about anything then pm me and ill give my number as its far easier on the phone sometimes .
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2455


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
If you are at all worryed about anything then pm me and ill give my number as its far easier on the phone sometimes .


Awesome thank you so much! I will PM you if I run into problems thanks a lot.

I just got 30 mins in the garage today after a hike while baby slept. I made my transmission adapter for my trolley jack. As you can see, theres not much to it. I got this jack when I had a 350z, those are really low and needed a low entry jack. I like this jack as its lightweight, and really stable with the wide wheels.



Under the rubber there is an allen bolt.



I used a 200x300mm piece of 4mm steel as my transmission adapter. Drilled a 24mm hole in the middle.



Bolted up to the jack. I will likely place bits of wood on top to match the profile of the gearbox.

On this jack the gearbox should be able to spin on top, and it should drop it low enough to drag out from under the car at the height I have it. A G50 weighs 10.5 stone dry, should be fine on this 4mm steel even if I don't jack the centre of gravity quite right - i bounced on it to be sure. I will use two roof rack straps to retain the gearbox.
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7584
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I made mine I bolted end plates (angle iron) to the sides so the timber I used to pack the gearbox profile didn't slip off and then using a couple of straps to hold it all together.
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2455


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
When I made mine I bolted end plates (angle iron) to the sides so the timber I used to pack the gearbox profile didn't slip off and then using a couple of straps to hold it all together.


I should have done this, gearbox was sliding around a bit.

Got the gearbox off!

I picked a lovey day for it, the car was frozen:


Ah well.




Bolted a socket up on the lower right to rest the engine on the crossmember while I work on it.



Keeping the bolts in order sop the correct ones go back in.

Special tools so far: 10mm XZN triple square bit

Difficult bits:

Gear cables looked like they had never been off and the lower was rusted solid to its mount. Half an hour of faffing got it off, clip destroyed but zip ties will hold it on now.

I worried about the top gearbox bolt, as i couldn't get a breaker or ratchet on it. I dropped the engine to the bottom of the mount thread, and the gearbox a bit luckily it came undone with a ratchet spanner I had - was not too tight.

CLUTCH SLAVE aaargh POS what a faff. 13mm bolts. I undid it when i drppped the box a bit. The lower bolt is a pain.

Sliding the box off itself was like wrestling a stuck pig.

Otherwise not too bad. 3 hours today broken by a long lunch. i've decided to do the brake pipe over the gearbox, it does not look great in places.

Last edited by wasz on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:58 am; edited 2 times in total
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7584
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasz wrote:
CLUTCH SLAVE aaargh POS what a faff. 13mm bolts. I undid it when i drppped the box a bit. The lower bolt is a pain.


You'll enjoy refitting it then, trying to compress the slave plunger while getting a bolt in. frustrated
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ELA
Barcelona


Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1264
Location: Nurburgring Doorstep


PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
wasz wrote:
CLUTCH SLAVE aaargh POS what a faff. 13mm bolts. I undid it when i drppped the box a bit. The lower bolt is a pain.


You'll enjoy refitting it then, trying to compress the slave plunger while getting a bolt in. frustrated


Yep Infrasilver knows the score, fitting the slave cylinder is a barrel of laughs. For bleeding though; the single best tool I have ever bought is the Eezibleed brake kit. Highly recommended Wink
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