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P911X50
Silverstone


Joined: 03 Jan 2017
Posts: 127
Location: Hertfordshire


PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Thinking of a F360 Reply with quote

Hi

I've owned by 996 turbo X50 for a year and love it. I have had her ceramically coated, I've taken off all the trim and removed any rust. It mainly a garage queen and I've only completed 1,000 miles. She is seal grey, black interior with guards red seat belts. She mainly stock, but with a 9e exhaust and RSS engine mounts.

Love her.

However, I've always been a Ferrari man at heart, but never owned one. So I am asking if any here has done the dirty and had a Ferrari 360 or has previously owned a F360 and would they buy one knowing that they would have to sell the 996 X50 seal grey forgetting the purchase cost??

All views accepted
Smile
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Porsche 996 Turbo X50 with 9e exhaust
Evo 4 with Evo 8 MR Engine 360 bhp - Road Legal Track car
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2360
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think cheshire911 is / was looking for one to go along side his existing car which is also an 996turbo X50.

He has done a fair bit of research on it so maybe it's worth sending him a PM.
 
  
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crash7
Monza


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 249



PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a performance perspective the x50 will be quicker, a standard 996 turbo is quicker.

F360 will cost more to maintain and is not a daily driver, it will however feel more special than your x50.

If your looking for specifics fire away!
 
  
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Marky911
Suzuka


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1070



PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loads of my mates have made the jump to Ferraris from 911s, so I've spent plenty of time with them as pax and driver.

As has been said your 996T will be faster and feel more solid, however I think a 360 would suit your uses perfectly, a nice sunny day car you can tinker with lightly and have looking lovely.

360 wins on looks (subjective but most would agree), sound and sense of occasion and they are still plenty quick enough for UK roads.

The build quality isn't as good as Porsche, even a 996. The dash button covering all goes funny and peels and suspension bushes creak and groan if not kept tip top. There are decent aftermarket parts available now though to avoid some of the Ferrari tax. I think it's Hill Engineering who do a lot of the parts.

I came very close to buying a 360 Spyder a few years ago but chose my mk1 GT3 instead. Having had to sell the GT3 later I sort of wish I'd scratched my Ferrari itch while I could have done, but no regrets eh.

Whatever you do avoid the F1 auto. The lunge between gear changes is comical and they cost a lot when they go wrong.

The manual is a nice thing though.
My mates have had 360s, coupe and Spyder, 550, 575, 430 Spyder then Scud and now 458s.
430 Scud was my favourite although after a B road blast driving the 458 I cannot think how anyone could need anything more from a road car.

They're all great. A TDF Blue 360 coupe with tan interior would do me nicely.

I say go for it! Scratch that itch. You're a long time dead.
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adirussell
Newbie


Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 22
Location: Manchester


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have a 996 Turbo and last year I had to opportunity to buy my dream car which was a Ferrari F355. so I'm running both at the moment.

Ever since I went to the Motor Show at the NEC in 1995 I wanted an F355 as to me it was and still is one of the best looking cars in the world.

I know you're after a 360 which is obviously the next gen up from mine and therefore quicker but the 996 Turbo will obliterate it in terms of performance.

The Ferrari however is more of a head turner and has a great sense of occasion. Oh and the noise.............. Very Happy

If however I had could only keep one, it would probably be the Porsche.
 
  
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160dmb
Trainee


Joined: 19 Aug 2014
Posts: 97



PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a 355 and a 360 when they were current and used them both as daily(ish) drivers - I used to commute by train. The 355 was arguably prettier and was a targa - I love fresh air motoring but the 360 was undeniably the better car.

360 is much better put together and despite the fact they did not do a targa 360 I preferred it to the 355 - but the 355 will go down as the more classic car.

A turbo might be quicker but either Ferrari has plenty of performance and imho does feel more special when you get it out of the garage - I would certainly look back at my Ferrari's more than I do to my Porsche - but the Porsche has 4 seats which I need now - a point neither Ferrari manages.

Certainly Ferrari tax is more expensive than Porsche tax but if you want to and you can then I say go for it.
 
  
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cheshire911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3478



PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP: The Ferrari market is very different and it is best to acknowledge the Porsche 996 Turbo is a fast point -and-shoot vehicle with own unique attraction which is why I cannot see ne selling mine.

Ferrari is a beautiful car but very different - the V8 sound (especially with a Capristo or Larini exhaust system. It stuns people wherever you go - its Italian, its a V8, its a Ferrari and (according to this months Modern Classics magazine the 355 represents depreciation free motoring with values climbing that offset maintenance costs).

The 360 succeeded the 355 just like the 996 succeeded the 997 and improved on it. But enthusiasts still maintain the 355 is the iconic car - especially the Berlinetta 6 speed manual.

Prepare yourself for ownership though by (a) joining the Ferrari forum on PH ( far more representative of real ownership) and talk to some reputable specialists. Tim Walker in Oswestry is a good guy to talk to. Migliore in Bromsgrove too. ***** is another one.

Ball joints are known weakness on the 360. Specialists recommend alternative joints with longer life. Mechanically pretty bullet-proof. Manual box highly desirable but £10k £20k premium and known weakness on 3rd gear synchro that's gonna cost you for a full box strip and rebuild with very expensive parts.

The remark about avoiding F1 (auto) is inaccurate. There were far more F1 box cars sold than manual. The gear changes are quick and clutch life is 20k if you do stop-start in commute traffic conditions, though some owners get 30k miles or more in same driving. The F1 box MUST be set up properly using SD2 level diagnostics. On open road driving a clutch will last 60k miles.
Clutch wear reading is a guide - but only a guide. Examples out there with readings of 70% wear with no slipping and no issues with gear change.

Some clutches fail through 'tang failure' resulting in no gear changes available and low-loaded to specialist for new clutch.

Budget - be prepared. Indys are the best route for servicing, but you'll not find an Indy charging less than £85-£90/hr + VAT for labour.

Limited choice of after-market parts - invariably pricey parts supplied by main dealers to indys. Eurospares sell after-market parts but still expensive.
CarParts4Less and Euro Car Parts unlikely to meet your parts requirements and people buying a Fezza have a PPI and if it shows non-original parts have been used, it might put a buyer off.

Service every year (annual service) but these become larger 'mileage' services at intervals.

Every thee years, cambelts replaced without fail (even if car not used or stored). 360 belts done with engine in situ (access panel through rear). 355 needs engine out job.

Budget £800-£900 for 360 cambelts every three years ON TOP of 3rd year service (and if that is a mileage service not an annual service it will be quite a big bill for mileage service + cambelts).

Budget wise a good 360 manual sub 30k miles you need to spend around £75k - £95k. For ultra low miles car (<10k miles) it is £100+k.

Ferrari prices have softened but still on upward trajectory. Avoid any car with ropey history, deal only with recognised specialists and buy at the very top of your budget. Buying a car that on inspection needs £5k is false economy - other work will surface taking total spend to put it right much higher than first estimated. Buy a good 'un from the outset so your ownership experience is not painful. 355 prices are silly - like 993 turbo prices v 996 turbo prices.

Often the history may be missing stamps due to the car being stored.
A specialist can advise if you should proceed. Skimping ANYTHING on a Ferrari will devalue it. Everything must be done by the book to schedule.
Thankfully the prices means these cars are unlikely to fall into the hands of a buyer who can buy a Fezza for the price of a Fiesta but cant maintain it with a proper budget.

My honest suggestion is to buy a car that's been driven and used - 30k miles but under 50k miles. Avoid low mileage examples even with full service - they come at a premium price and may not be as reliable.

Despite pub room chatter about poor build and reliability, talking to real CURRENT owners, you will discover this is simply not the case. There are plenty of Fezza owners who find their cars to be very reliable doing 3-5kmiles per annum - some do more but Fezza's are very mileage sensitive and impact on values. This imposes self-restraint for some owners. But there are guys out there with 60k-70k mile 360's who are not bothered as the car is a keeper.

Once you have one you'll grin every time you see it and drive it and listen to that beautiful V8. Recognise it is not a Porsche and a Porsche is not a Ferrari.
Recognise also there is a uniqueness in low numbers - scarcity attracts attention where brute bullet speed and torque of a 996 Turbo attracts its own uniqueness. The best combination is to have both.....But that's a different matter.

Even better is the F430 - the successor to the 360. Lower total ownership costs as no cambelts to be changed on the dot every three years. Even rarer to find a Manual F430. Nearly all are F1 auto box which is a dry-plate clutch with hydraulic servos operated off the paddles. And in Sport Mode absolutely grunts and growls and crackles on the over-run from that V8. On downshifts it blips on the throttle and gives electronically faster shifts. Don't drive it in Auto mode. Only in Manual or Manual + Sport for both the 360 and the 430 F1 box.

Do it. You'll not regret it.
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 11381
Location: 4,000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.......and be prepared to replace the failed wiper motor. They're prone to packing up with the intense use of wiping birds underwear off the screen.
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apollokre1d
Indianapolis


Joined: 06 Nov 2012
Posts: 2360
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grin
 
  
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Marky911
Suzuka


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1070



PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of useful stuff there Cheshire but if you honestly think the gear changes on a 360 F1 box are "quick", you're easily pleased. They're so bad it's hilarious. A massive pause then a lunge and a whack in the back as it goes again.
Op the simple thing to do is drive both when you're ready. If you've only ever had a tiptronic Porsche then the F1 may seem ok. If you've driven PDK you'll be shocked at the F1.
A 458 on the other hand is fantastic. Much much better, although I still think the PDK on a 991 GT3 pips it, but both are worlds away from those bloody awful F360 F1 boxes.

That's why the manuals command a huge premium. Wink
 
  
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cheshire911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3478



PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The F1 box is a single dry-plate clutch where the PDK is dual clutch pre-selector box. So no comparisons can be made.

The F1 box does not change as described if (a) it is set up correctly (the PIS and KIS points) and (b) if the throttle pedal is eased slightly as the paddle is flicked (contrary to the owners manual).

The same box is used in the Maserati Cambiocorsa and is the most desirable where a model offered a choice of manual or Cambiocorsa.

The clutch settings are checked at each service as is clutch wear on the F1/Cambiocorsa box.

The box is intelligent in that it drops down a gear as the car slows to prevent stall if the driver doesn't flick the paddle and changes up at red line revs (unless its in Sports mode when it holds at red line).

Technology evolves and when I have driven a PDK it is very nice. But the F1 box ain't bad. We're talking milliseconds difference in changes between the old F1 box and modern dual-clutch pre-selector boxes and properly set up I've not experienced gear changes as described.

The F430 is also well-suited to semi-auto box and is the more desirable car over a (rare) manual box F430.

For a 360 the manual is rare and desirable - but the box is prone to issue that requires a full strip and rebuild if you end up with a manual box car that needs it.

The 458? Now that is an awesome car.....

One thing for sure, values continue to climb. 5 years ago a manual F360 could he had for low £30k and F1 cars for high £20k Now they are commanding £80k and £65k respectively.

Good luck with your purchase and dare I say it, a PPI is a must unless you are buying from a dozen or so respected specialists. Tim Walker is highly recommended as is AV Engineering in London. They give lots of advice and can source a good car. They seem to know practically all the stock for sale on PH.
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HSC911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
Posts: 3268
Location: Bedford


PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
.......and be prepared to replace the failed wiper motor. They're prone to packing up with the intense use of wiping birds underwear off the screen.



Floor
 
  
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1138



PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A close friend of mine has a few Ferrari's but rarely drives them and says he's never owned a make of car that got spat at so much at traffic lights...

Maybe double that order for wiper motors Rolling Eyes
 
  
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cheshire911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3478



PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a budget for a manual 360, this is an attractive F430 in the same budget:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201711251572570?make=FERRARI&model=F430&r=2.0049394673123486

Arun is a Jaguar dealer and claims this is his own personal car.
An independent PPI is a must on this car from this dealer, but new clutch fitted recently - so a major expense is out of the way. No cambelts means lower ownership costs versus maintenance on a 360, a more progressive development as it is the successor to the 360 with a new 4.2 litre V8 engine.

I'd estimate cost-to-change if you part-ex your turbo will be around the £40k mark give or take a couple of grand either way (if yours is a tiptronic).

The F430 is an overall much better car as it is part of the evolution of Ferrari V8's. The 458 prices are very firm with very few owners being enticed to upgrade to the 488. But hold a F430 long enough and you are one step away from a 458.

Talk to Ferrari forum on PH's and get insights from current owners to help you decide a way forward. The 360 (especially manual cars) prices and 355 prices are considered to be too high versus the prices of a good 430. Some re-adjustment may be a market possibility.
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elan
Silverstone


Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 119
Location: London


PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had similar thoughts about moving from 997 Turbo to a Ferrari 458 every time I see one. I really love the 997 Turbo and don't really want to part with it, in case I am priced out in the future. Realistically I can get a F430 but ideally I want the 458 as well as the 997. Have the 458 prices bottomed out? They have been around the £150k for a while.
 
  
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cheshire911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3478



PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

458 prices remain firm around £160k for the Italia model, but double that for the Speciale model. I think some of this is due to cost of change for these owners to go to a 488 is too much and the 488 moves Ferrari out of the NA models into twin turbo-charged models which perhaps holds people back?

The Ferrari section on PH's is helpful to understand the market dynamics and models.

The F430 car is is the F136 4.2l V8 which I very reliable. The 458 is 7-speed dual clutch where the F430 is 6-speed F1 single plate clutch.

I'm not sure that you'll be priced out of a 997 Turbo in time with the way Ferrari prices are going. But its a judgement call what is best for you.
The ideal is as you say, keep the Turbo and have the Ferrari - be it a F430 or a F458.

Worth phoning and speaking to Tim Walker and AV Engineering to get specialist advice.
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ragpicker
Paul Ricard


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3147
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love, love, love the look of the 430!

Plus the price of the grey one looks good to my eye.. (I know nothing about Fezzers)..

If I had a spare £80k I'd snap that up and take it for a drive up to Louis Wise's Mansion
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MaxA
Imola


Joined: 11 Oct 2015
Posts: 804
Location: Helsinki


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say do it, if you're a Ferrari man. There's some solid advice in this thread. Personally, they're not for me. I'd prefer a Lamborghini, for the noise and the looks. A friend ran a 458 but sold it as he could never use it properly.

There were a couple of Ferraris at the independent garage the other day, and it was slightly worrying: one was in two halves, for what I would have thought was a simple clutch replacement, and the other was missing an engine. The guys were explainíng that they're just not engineered to be worked on. nooo
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HSC911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
Posts: 3268
Location: Bedford


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaxA wrote:
I'd prefer a Lamborghini, for the noise and the looks


Agree



MaxA wrote:
they're just not engineered to be worked on. nooo


Or driven much Sad



Grin
 
  
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cheshire911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3478



PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those cars you describe as being in two halves might have been old models.
They were designed for the bodywork to lift away for ease of access to engine and are not as labour intensive as they appear. Modern cars also have parts of the bodywork that lifts off for access. Its as if Porsche might have designed the 911 for the rear end to split away for access to engine instead of dropping the engine from underneath.

The F430 is probably the best value between the F360 and the 458 being around the price of a manual 360 and around 33%-50% cheaper than a 458.

The lifetime ownership costs are less over the 360 as indicated in an earlier post with having no cambelts to change every three years. But at around 65k miles the camchains need to be with examined and replaced if required - based on the same F136 engine requirement on the Maserati Coupe 4.2.
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