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coullstar
Hockenheim


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 629
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Debris in oil - can you identify? Reply with quote

I changed the oil on the car about 700miles ago, not long after I bought it, as it had a sticky tappet.

The oil in it hadn't been for maybe around 2000miles. I found some small metal flakes that were magnetic but didn't look like bearing material.

So I dropped the filter last night after 700miles and found another flake the same appearance and again magnetic. Nothing else in the filter.

Im not jumping to conclusions about what it is but just wondering if anyone recognizes where they may be from?

There very thin and almost bronze like in colour. They also have very slight grooves like machining marks on them. Engine has done 30k miles and was new in 2010, 3.4 with the last revision IMS.

Oil has been sent to Millers for analysis and Im going to drop the sump for a look.

Any thoughts, is there parts of the chain system that it could be?
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7171
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have rebuilt a few times and I can't think of anything that looks like that with those lines on it, they do look uniform. To me it looks like plating has flaked off something but whatever it is, it's failing.

I would also fit a magnetic sump plug for the future and like you say pull the sump, easy to do and it may give you more bits that have made it to the sump but were too big to go through the oil pick up. Be prepared for around 1/2 litre of oil still sat in the sump base when you drop it and you will need Loctite 5900 sealant when replacing it as there is no gasket.
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coullstar
Hockenheim


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 629
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I'm going to filter the oil with a strainer when draining. Spoke with Hartech and they couldn't really identify it either.

Wheres best to get a magnetic plug from?
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crash7
Monza


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 248



PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got mine from FVD, it matches my sump Very Happy

D911 & Euro also sell them
 
  
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Mac996t
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Posts: 449


2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes having a look in the sump is a good idea because anything that makes it to the filter has to go through the oil pump first.
The pump only has a very small clearance between its moving parts so can crush/grind bits and turn them into flakes. Not sure what the inside of a 996 pump looks like but some types have machining on them which can leave marks on the flakes.

Strangely you flakes look too big to have got through the oil strainer on the pump suction so they may well be that big because the pump has squashed them a little like using a rolling pin on some pastry if you know what I mean!

Also any bits from the cylinder heads also have to make it through the chylinderhead return pumps

Mac
 
  
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1138



PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm
Do you have any history of it ever having some oil seals replaced post engine replacement?


This looks to me like it's something do with either crankshaft front or rear seals or cam end plugs. The latter maybe plated as well as plastic coated and that plating disturbed during removal or fitting. I'm sure my old cam end plugs were that same bronze colour on the inside (discarded now though so can't compare)

Appart from oil analysis I'd pull the sump have a very close look at the oil pump pickup before running it anymore.

Last edited by Harv on Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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cheshire911
Paul Ricard


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3476



PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait to hear what the oil analysis reveals then share it with Grant or Baz at Hartech for a second opinion. Trying to guess what those flakes are off is a pure guess - perhaps with more info from the analysis, Hartech may be best placed to advise you?
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coullstar
Hockenheim


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 629
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harv wrote:
Hmmmm
Do you have any history of it ever having some oil seals replaced post engine replacement?


This looks to me like it's something do with either crankshaft front or rear seals or cam end plugs. The latter maybe plated as well as plastic coated and that plating disturbed during removal or fitting. I'm sure my old cam end plugs were that same bronze colour on the inside (discarded now though so can't compare)

Appart from oil analysis I'd pull the sump have a very close look at the oil pump pickup before running it anymore.


Not sure, I'll need to check history. Thanks for the suggestions, I'm not too worried at the moment but oil analysis will be interesting.

Does anyone have a good set of base analysis for reference? I know it totally depends on engine but I suppose they will highlight any unusually high content.
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skinny_monkey
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 16 Sep 2014
Posts: 318



PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's loads of "Blackstone" analysis posted on US porsche sites which you can get averages from. Very rough rule of thumb you want under 10ppm for your wear metals based on 5000 mile drain intervals
 
  
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coullstar
Hockenheim


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 629
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is 50ml of sealant enough?
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7171
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coullstar wrote:
Is 50ml of sealant enough?


I would say so as you only need the thinnest of smears. Torque the bolts within 15 minute of putting the sealant on the mating face.
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7171
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac996t wrote:
Not sure what the inside of a 996 pump looks like but some types have machining on them which can leave marks on the flakes.

Strangely you flakes look too big to have got through the oil strainer on the pump suction so they may well be that big because the pump has squashed them a little like using a rolling pin on some pastry if you know what I mean!

Also any bits from the cylinder heads also have to make it through the chylinderhead return pumps


The main oil pump gears have a very tight clearance and are smooth so they wouldn't have made any marks on this debris on its way through

The scavenger pump (cylinder head pump) at each side of the engine have very tight clearances and would have possibly seized if it had gone into there.

Mine seized solid when a thin bit of timing chain roller went into it.


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coullstar
Hockenheim


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 629
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So nothing really indicates where this has come from.

Ive ordered up sealant and new sump plug so will hopefully get to it this weekend and report back.
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coullstar
Hockenheim


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 629
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oil report came back and no issues apparent. I had a bit of a heart stopping moment as the Mo and B levels were pretty high but after a chat with Millers they said thats inherent to the NT oil so nothing to worry about.

He said he saw nothing to cause any alarm at all. Cant fault their service either as sent the oil away on Tuesday and that was the report in this morning.

Thumb

Next is sump drop and see.
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Thomp1983
Newbie


Joined: 26 Oct 2017
Posts: 18
Location: Newark on Trent


PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not familiar with the internals of the 996 engine but the lines remind me of the inside of an oil seal



That's a crankshaft seal off an MR2 off which is what it reminds me of ive no idea if there's similar inside a 996 or how it would fail.
 
  
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coullstar
Hockenheim


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 629
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay managed to get the sump off and photos are as below.

It was pretty much clean with no major bits found other than about 6 small brown ceramic style bits and another 3 similar metal flakes on the oil pick up. I'm assuming this is timing tensioner items?

Bit of a dilemma now, does it warrant getting the tensioners looked at? Clutch needs done so I was going to get the IMS outer seal removed so I presume it wouldn't be to much to take a look at the tensioners although the manifolds so have to come off.

Any thoughts?
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7171
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The brown pieces do look like chain guide material, I have replaced my guides in the past, once as one had pitted on the surface quite a lot and another I changed at a later date had cracked in several places, this cracked one was the one I replaced previously and was fairly new still. Unfortunately if these fail you will lose tension in your chain and possibly lunch the engine. You would need to remove the cams to inspect these.

On the 3.4 you also have a cam chain and there are a brown pair of guides on them too, you could check these by removing the cam covers to see if there are any bits missing from the guides.

Again those metal deposits are a mystery but as you have found more it suggests something is not happy in there.
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1138



PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like the Clint Eastwood saying....

If it was me I would want to know what's going on with the tensioner pads and chain guide plastics, so at least cam covers off and eyeball those in the heads, you won't be able to look at the chain guides though unless the cams are removed and you will not know what the ims chain tensionser is like (but that one is black and not white which stains to brown so I think you can rule that one out from looking at your pics).

Poppopbangbang who posts here sometimes had a pulley end main crank bearing fail due to a tensioner blade breaking up and the debris going past the oil pump pickup. He had been monitoring metal content in the oil and this showed up something was a miss though the car ran on for maybe 500 miles. You know that you are ok thus far but 'if' it does start making metal then it will be into bottom end work, knowing too much almost and ignorance is bliss etc.

The tensioners on the 3.4 remind me a lot of the one which sits between the cams on the 944s/s2 16v engines. They had no life/mileage or check written into Porsche service schedule, over time the tensioners pad would be worn away until a critical point where the chain would suddenly be able to eat into and pickup on the the metal underneath with catastrophic results.

Hope this helps Surprised

Last edited by Harv on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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coullstar
Hockenheim


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 629
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this photo below of the cam plugs and it does look familiar. I've got a noisy tappet and there is some chain noise on start up so it's all adding up..... Evil or Very Mad

Bit annoyed a 30k engine is doing this, the reason I bought it was so I didn't have to worry about things failing from wear and tear for a good while.
If I'm honest ive pretty much lost interest now, only had it couple of months and it needs a clutch and flywheel soon as well. Don't have the time or spare cash to be getting this fixed nooo. I've bought a pup it seems. Sad
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1138



PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the inside of those cam plugs is what I thought your metal debris looked like.

Are you doing the remedial work yourself?

Lots of cars make noise on startup until pressure comes into the chain tensioners and that's just how they are.

Parts discussed shouldn't cost you too much and there's some good deals on clutches about. With only 30k if your flywheel was new when the replacement engine went in then it should be fine to use again subject to the necessary checks.

Good luck
 
  
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