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Norfolk & Idea
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
Posts: 1302
Location: South Yorkshire


PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rabbitstew wrote:
Very nice. Id be very tempted if I wasnt having to fork out for a "grand designs" make over of my house shortly.


Yes exactly. It's like we're 'punished' with redecorating programs when we buy 'investments' I've just had to fork out for a purple AGA cooker thing along with enough wallpaper and paint to fill Wembley.
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2012 997.2 Turbo Basalt Black. Bit of a 9E ing.
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New997buyer
Yas Marina


Joined: 17 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ragpicker wrote:
I think its stunning...

Now where's that lottery ticket...


No need. We’ll organise a whip round and get you one for your birthday Laughing
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997.1 turbo
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jotaking
Montreal


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
Posts: 600



PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Gt3 Reply with quote

TomH wrote:
jotaking wrote:
Tom, I like it and I'm sure it's 100%

TomH wrote:
No incursions in any of the 6 Rev ranges:hand:


Not even range 1?

IIRC range 1 to 3 can register during pretty normal use?

A car with any mileage on it will have a rev range in 1, let alone a sports GT car with 33K?


Not even range 1.
DME data as of 09:15am today (13/10/2017) is as follows :-
Nmax for range 1................0
Nmax for range 2................0
Nmax for range 3................0
Nmax for range 4................0
Nmax for range 5................0
Nmax for range 6................0
Operating hours Total 895.2
Average speed from day one 37.02 mph

Not widely known but the DME on the 997 GT3 records redline and missed gear activity differently to other Porsche cars. There are a number of 997 GT3's kicking about with 0 incursions in any of the 6 rev ranges but this does not mean they haven't been to the limiter. Bouncing off the limiter in a 997 GT3 with either the sport button on or off (hard and soft limiter) will leave no trace of said event on the DME. A recording in range 1 will only be achieved with a genuine fluffed / missed gear. Consequently, rev range activity past 2 on a 997 GT3 should be considered more relevant than on other Porsche's.

Tom 911Virgin


My car is in for a service at the OPC, whilst on site I thought I would ask one of the tech guys about the different parameters for "over rev" data between standard cars and GT cars.

The "Gold Technician" said "GT cars are no different to any other and data is recorded in the same way?."

Is the Porsche tech guy incorrect?

Can anyone shed any light on this subject?
 
  
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TomH
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Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 75



PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject: Over rev Reply with quote

Hi,
He is half right. The 996 gt3 (mk 1 and mk2) records ignitions at and past the limiter in the same way as a Carrera of the same generation. A 997 GT3 (Gen 1 and Gen 2) does not, as per my previous post. The technician is, in this instance incorrect. Bounce a 997 GT3 off the limiter going up through the gears and no rev range activity will be added to the DME. I promise.
Cheers Tom
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Cunno
Watkins Glen


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
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Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To back up what Tom is saying the link below has the rev range limits for most modern Porsche's.

As you can see a 997 GT3 doesn't record RR1 till 9000rpm, which is 600rpm over the limiter. So it's not uncommon for 997GT3s to have no over revs as the only way is to miss a shift.
Gold techs at OPC, just confirms why I use a good Indy.


http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/
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NLW73
Suzuka


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 1193
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom is it right that the 996 version will only record rev ranges 1 and 2 where as the 997 will go right up to 6?

what's the general view? don't touch anything which has had a rev range 3 and above?

what does it mean when a car has had rev range too about 1000 hours ago for example? thanks,
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New997buyer
Yas Marina


Joined: 17 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Occams Razor.
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jotaking
Montreal


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
Posts: 600



PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my reading and what I have been told (so please don't take this as red)

The rev limit or thereabouts is where the range starts. This climbs up in small increments. I dont know the exact rev numbers but I think its something like 6600 rev1, 6700 rev2???(Any expert input would be good). Each firing of the cylinder is logged in relevant range 1-6. If you register a range 3 then you would also register a 2 & 1 as you worked up the range to a 3.(I think)

I assume the range is there to help diagnose mechanical problems before they have a catastrophic effect?

I don't understand why the range data would be any different on a GT3 other than the registration process would start higher up the rev range?

Ranges 1-3 are generally considered to be acceptable usage and within tolerances. Ranges 4 & 5 would require leak down tests and range 6 possible engine tear down.

IIRC the rev data becomes less important the longer the engine has run past the logging time? Therefore, if it has a range 4 and has run for 200 hours without incident then it would be deemed okay??

I am fully prepared to be shot down in flames!!

It would be good if any experts can input with some good data and evidence to explain to everyone what all this over rev business is about?
 
  
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WindMilly
Newbie


Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 15
Location: Guildford


PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep coming back to this 997.2 GT3 too. Look at it! It’s perfect. The white gold wheels against the dark grey body are beautiful to my eyes. Perfect spec too with bucket seats and axle lift amongst many others. And whilst Tom at 911V has offered me a competitive trade-in on my 997.2 Targa 4S, no amount of man-maths can help me justify the one and half times increase in price to buy it. So, I have been looking at more budget-friendly 997.1 GT3s but often they have options like PCM 2.1 which is one of the main reasons I held out for a Gen II when I bought my Targa four years ago! So I think: look forward at 991s. I applied for a new 991.2 GT3, being able to justify to myself some financing on a brand new car. Naturally, my £119k spec application was rejected. To somehow ease my pain, my OPC offered me first dibs on a 3-year-old 991.1 GT3 with 18,000 miles for £10k more than “my” 991.2 GT3. This sat in their showroom for several weeks, was reduced to £125K, then £119k, then £117k and finally sold - for what? £115k? There are so many 991.1 GT3s been for sale for months, that I don’t want to go there. So then I wonder about looking back at 996s. Whisper in the track day paddocks is that 996.1 GT3, being first of the GT3s, is set to be the next ’73 RS in a few years’ time, but the range of prices for 996 GT3s for sale is £45k - £101k - where to start? I know I sound like a spoilt, disgruntled buyer but that’s because I am one! I want to do more track days next year, but with the mechanical-assurance that comes with a Mezger engine behind me rather than a DFI. Perhaps I should wrap my Targa Mexico Blue, have the wheels painted Weiss Gold, put my faith in the Porsche extended warranty and enjoy it for another four years...
 
  
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Shaoxter
Imola


Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 803



PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in a similar boat to you WindMilly, this one just looks so good but it's a steep upgrade. Who wants to lend me £60k? Very Happy

p.s. those bucket seats are just pure porn and need a NSFW tag.
 
  
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Cunno
Watkins Glen


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2228
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jotaking wrote:
From my reading and what I have been told (so please don't take this as red)

The rev limit or thereabouts is where the range starts. This climbs up in small increments. I dont know the exact rev numbers but I think its something like 6600 rev1, 6700 rev2???(Any expert input would be good). Each firing of the cylinder is logged in relevant range 1-6. If you register a range 3 then you would also register a 2 & 1 as you worked up the range to a 3.(I think)

I assume the range is there to help diagnose mechanical problems before they have a catastrophic effect?

I don't understand why the range data would be any different on a GT3 other than the registration process would start higher up the rev range?

Ranges 1-3 are generally considered to be acceptable usage and within tolerances. Ranges 4 & 5 would require leak down tests and range 6 possible engine tear down.

IIRC the rev data becomes less important the longer the engine has run past the logging time? Therefore, if it has a range 4 and has run for 200 hours without incident then it would be deemed okay??

I am fully prepared to be shot down in flames!!

It would be good if any experts can input with some good data and evidence to explain to everyone what all this over rev business is about?



Read this, it will clear it up for you.





http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/
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Present Car: 2006 3.6 Porsche GT3 997(White)
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jotaking
Montreal


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
Posts: 600



PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cunno wrote:

As you can see a 997 GT3 doesn't record RR1 till 9000rpm, which is 600rpm over the limiter. So it's not uncommon for 997GT3s to have no over revs as the only way is to miss a shift.

http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/


Some good info on the link.(I missed the earlier entry) Thanks for that.

So in summary...

Carrera and Turbos capture over rev data from (max RPM+200)

GT3 capture data from (max RPM+600)

Why is 200+ revs the marker for standard cars and 600+ the marker in GT3 cars?

Is it because Porsche engineers expect GT3's to be bouncing off and above the limiters more often and therefore don't want to catch masses of irrelevant data?

Or…

Is this because the GT3 motorsport engine can withstand higher loads/tolerances and therefore does not require the same degree of monitoring/protection as the standard Carrera and Turbo engines?

Boffins required!
 
  
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Gareth64
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Mar 2016
Posts: 135
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jotaking wrote:
Cunno wrote:

As you can see a 997 GT3 doesn't record RR1 till 9000rpm, which is 600rpm over the limiter. So it's not uncommon for 997GT3s to have no over revs as the only way is to miss a shift.

http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/


Some good info on the link.(I missed the earlier entry) Thanks for that.

So in summary...

Carrera and Turbos capture over rev data from (max RPM+200)

GT3 capture data from (max RPM+600)

Why is 200+ revs the marker for standard cars and 600+ the marker in GT3 cars?

Is it because Porsche engineers expect GT3's to be bouncing off and above the limiters more often and therefore don't want to catch masses of irrelevant data?

Or…

Is this because the GT3 motorsport engine can withstand higher loads/tolerances and therefore does not require the same degree of monitoring/protection as the standard Carrera and Turbo engines?

Boffins required!


Not sure it's to do with loads/tolerances as up to the 997 Turbo 1.5 the Turbos and GT3s share the same Mezger lump of course, albeit the GT3 has some different parts in there. Maybe it is those parts that make the difference though? Dont know
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Gareth64
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Mar 2016
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Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NLW73 wrote:
Tom is it right that the 996 version will only record rev ranges 1 and 2 where as the 997 will go right up to 6?

what's the general view? don't touch anything which has had a rev range 3 and above?

what does it mean when a car has had rev range too about 1000 hours ago for example? thanks,


Tom's piece on the 911V website explains this clearly as someone has already said but in summary 996s have 2 ranges and 997s have 6 ranges.

An over rev showing from 1000 hours ago could be a very long time ago indeed. Dunno how much you all drive your cars on average but let's say 10 hours per week so 100 weeks ago which is basically 2 years. I guess a number of buyers who understand this may well take a view on a 2 year old over rev if there's no damage showing now? I guess it does depend on the range of the over rev though... Dont know
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kas750
Estoril


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
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Location: Chorley lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think inclusions past the limiter that trigger over revs many hours ago are the concern when buying a car it is more the problem of moving the car on when you come to sell.

Like a full OPC history and low mileage/low owners, a clear rev range report adds to desirability/saleability.
 
  
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Pip1968
Suzuka


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 1117
Location: Blighty


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure how long it has been "hanging around" but I am sure that with the release of newer models for a price not dissimilar (assuming you get one) and the fact that the new ones come in 'automatic' has a bearing on sales of 'vanilla' GT3s.

I should imagine that although the market has possibly been increased ie those wanting an 'auto' now have the option of a GT3 to suit, it has possibly reduced the market (of buyers) for those wanting a comfort specification manual GT3. I wonder how many of those who option a comfort specification would also have bought an 'auto' GT3 if the option was there.

Now we have a car at 911V that is nearly eight years old for a price not far off the cost of a 991. Its Porsche competition is only three years old and likely with less miles. Pistonheads shows four 991 GT3 for sale for less than £120,000. Perhaps there is not enough of a disparity in price between a 991 and a 997:

2013 27,000 miles 991 GT3 Comfort £117,000
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-991/porsche-911-gt3-pdk/7626873

2014 9,000 miles 991 GT3 Comfort £118,000
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-991/porsche-911-gt3-2dr-pdk/7198855

2014 10,000 miles 991 GT3 Clubsport £118,000
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-991/porsche-911-gt3-pdk/7176221

2014 18,000 miles 991 GT3 Comfort £119,000
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-991/991-gt3-comfort-supplied-in-superb-order-throughout-with-transferable-porsche-warranty-until-november-2018/7630191


Me personally, I would opt for the old school 997 with stick although I would have to look into getting nomex seats and a cage put in. Can a full OEM cage be retro fitted, I don't know.

I summary I do think the market for comfort specification GT3 997 has narrowed unless the price is right.

The upside is Tom at 911V has had his product pushed forward on the sales shelf with all this discussion so good luck. Thumb

Pip
 
  
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3313
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pip1968 wrote:
Me personally, I would opt for the old school 997 with stick although I would have to look into getting nomex seats and a cage put in. Can a full OEM cage be retro fitted, I don't know.


Yes it can; it's not that complicated since it only involves fabricating the floor plates plus a bit of cutting & welding. The thing is, it will still only be a modified comfort and won't be worth the same as a factory clubsport.
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MJA911
Magny-Cours


Joined: 10 Dec 2013
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Location: Berkshire

2006 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The car is showing deposit taken, nice job by 911v to sell it twice it quite a short timeframe Wink

Anybody on here? Had a look when buying mine, it’s even better in the flesh Congrats
 
  
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TomH
Approved Trader


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 75



PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: 997 GT3 Reply with quote

Pop Corn

Couldn't resist !

Tom
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Norfolk & Idea
Barcelona


Joined: 15 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: 997 GT3 Reply with quote

TomH wrote:
Pop Corn

Couldn't resist !

Tom


Ha ha, fair play! Wink Gorgeous car btw Thumb
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