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MNC911
Österreich


Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 959
Location: Prestbury


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:


I have heard that as well guys just finding the 991 a bit big and boring even the interior isn't very inspiring. I think the 997.2 is seeing this effect as buyers choose a 997.2 over a 991 as a proper driving car. Its interesting as it feeds onto the other discussion that the Cayman is now Porsche sports car and the 991 is a big GT cruiser so if thats the case then the 997.2 could well end up being the last 911 and that will have a big impact on its prices.
Thumb



The rest of the reasoning might be so but I can't really see how a difference in length of 2.2 inches can make such a difference especially as both cars are the same width. Confused

The 991 looks a lot bigger than a 997 but it's the shape and stance of the car rather than the overall physical dimensions.


I understand what you mean Phil by GT cruiser. When I'm at PCGB meets the new Cayman and Boxster physically look another level from its rivals BMW and Mazda etc. If I were on a track day I'd want to be in a Cayman. Long journeys to Europe the 911.
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chrisbill86
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Joined: 15 Dec 2013
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Location: Milton Keynes


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having been a 997 Gen 1 owner to 991 Gen 1 (15) I can relate to a lot of the comments. I would agree that the car doesn't feel bigger to drive from a size point of view but I would say it feels a lot more comfortable on the inside.

Mrs Chrisbill much prefers the 991, however for me it just doesn't quite feel the same. It misses a lot of the quirks of a slightly older 911. Everything just kind of works a little too well. Not as many squeaks, not as many smells etc etc.

I can't say I'd go back, a cruiser is much better for my needs, but I would like a 997 in the garage.

I can still rest assured though I have one of the last 3.8l N/A engines and in due course that will hold well for residuals.
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Boba fett
Kyalami


Joined: 14 May 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norfolk & Idea wrote:
easternjets wrote:

The one thing the Gen 1 turbo does have over everything else is that Mezger engine, that's whats keeping the residuals high on those ones, that and a manual box.


Are you a Boba Fett fanboy?

Laid in my bunk offshore last night, I read some production data. There were over 20,200 997.1 turbo's made. 3800 997.2 turbo's and 2000 997.2S. I guess that makes the gen 2 a bit more exclusive. Will that impact residuals?


20k of those where Tips.... Grin Grin Grin

As you know I still think the Mezger manual is the sweet spot, when I was looking for one I did lots of research in what model to buy, its done me proud, and mines probably gone up more than if I had bought a Gen 2, so I'm happy. I know the .2 is the more refined, polished car, but that just makes the .1 more raw and noisy and GT3 esque surly. Also although proving to be good I still think the DFI is relatively new and has got some major proving to do before it matches the Mezger legend. Anyway this debate can go on for ever. Both great cars and still bargains.

On the 997 in general, why should it not go up, its got everything you want in a 911. I think its the best looking, its a nice 911 to drive, its raw and edgy enough yet comfortable, its got a comprehensive range that can suit every pocket and as this post appears to be geared towards the NA's the .2 is the sweet spot, due to its more reliable lump.

I think its great the 997 (and the 911 in general over the last few years) is enjoying some appreciation, they are performance bargain and an Iconic car that no other can match.

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G2
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:


I have heard that as well guys just finding the 991 a bit big and boring even the interior isn't very inspiring. I think the 997.2 is seeing this effect as buyers choose a 997.2 over a 991 as a proper driving car. Its interesting as it feeds onto the other discussion that the Cayman is now Porsche sports car and the 991 is a big GT cruiser so if thats the case then the 997.2 could well end up being the last 911 and that will have a big impact on its prices.
Thumb



The rest of the reasoning might be so but I can't really see how a difference in length of 2.2 inches can make such a difference especially as both cars are the same width. Confused

The 991 looks a lot bigger than a 997 but it's the shape and stance of the car rather than the overall physical dimensions.


Parked next to each other, standing at the front, the 991 looks much bigger, but the higher back end, lower front end and screen angle amplifies the 2" difference.

The wheelbase and track increases are what makes a real difference to how these cars drive and how they feel. 10cm does not sound like a lot, but with PTV on both, it's the 991 that you feel it working on way more than the 997. You feel the front coming around on really tight bends rather than leading the way as it does in the 997. The smaller wheelbase/track and more enclosed cabin on the 997 make it more of a sports car. The 991 has the dash slightly lower and further away, due to the rake of the windscreen, which just makes the 991 feel a lot larger inside.

For spirited short blasts on a Sunday 997 edges it. But the 991 is a better 7 day car and wins hands down for longer distances. The 991 is a GT car no doubt, if porsche made that concious decision vs the Cayman as the sports model or if it is just the way it worked out is to be discussed.

Both 911 cars are amazing and anyone outside porsche circles probably thinks that we are nuts for so much discussion between cars that they think are the same, buts that's part of the fun of the porsche precision brand imho, subtle evolution.

Values? Cars are supposed to depreciate....but 997 values will hold up well vs the relative costs of the 991 as there is quite a gap in list....the man maths have to stretch a little further to make changing cars work. Who knows what will happen to the market though. Just enjoy them.
 
  
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911_AS
Imola


Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 751
Location: London

2010 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The feedback they're getting is 991 owners feel encased with the center console and cockpit design. They have buyers trading in for the 997.2 as PCM and other aspects can be upgraded.


WOW! I've never heard, or even thought, that the interior cabin would feel claustrophobic.

Having owned two 997's, I think they're great cars. However, every time I see a 991, I'm totally drawn to it and craving to own one. The Cabriolet looks so damn good even with the roof up as Porsche have got the lines perfect on the design. And the Coupe - well that's just a beautiful machine. Strictly speaking technically, is the 991 not a far better all-round car than the 997?

@ChrisBill - I totally hear you re: the squeaks and creaks. They certainly add more character. I just never thought "period features" would be something us 911 guys would seek in a car!!

I'm in no hurry to sell my 997.2; I'm thoroughly enjoying ownership and reading threads like this makes me appreciate it even more!

I'm interested to know how many other 991 owners slightly regret "upgrading" from a 997 to 991?
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Les
Hockenheim


Joined: 03 Mar 2014
Posts: 745
Location: Up the creek looking for a paddle.

2008 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well If any collector out there wants the first 997.2 RHD 3.6 PDK to roll off the factory line (chassis No. 494), then let me know.

Happy to swap it with some cash for a 997 turbo or 991... Wink. - you never know your luck!
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Rhodris-dad
Nürburgring


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 497
Location: RHYL


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G2 wrote:
T8 wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:


I have heard that as well guys just finding the 991 a bit big and boring even the interior isn't very inspiring. I think the 997.2 is seeing this effect as buyers choose a 997.2 over a 991 as a proper driving car. Its interesting as it feeds onto the other discussion that the Cayman is now Porsche sports car and the 991 is a big GT cruiser so if thats the case then the 997.2 could well end up being the last 911 and that will have a big impact on its prices.
Thumb



The rest of the reasoning might be so but I can't really see how a difference in length of 2.2 inches can make such a difference especially as both cars are the same width. Confused

The 991 looks a lot bigger than a 997 but it's the shape and stance of the car rather than the overall physical dimensions.


Parked next to each other, standing at the front, the 991 looks much bigger, but the higher back end, lower front end and screen angle amplifies the 2" difference.

The wheelbase and track increases are what makes a real difference to how these cars drive and how they feel. 10cm does not sound like a lot, but with PTV on both, it's the 991 that you feel it working on way more than the 997. You feel the front coming around on really tight bends rather than leading the way as it does in the 997. The smaller wheelbase/track and more enclosed cabin on the 997 make it more of a sports car. The 991 has the dash slightly lower and further away, due to the rake of the windscreen, which just makes the 991 feel a lot larger inside.

For spirited short blasts on a Sunday 997 edges it. But the 991 is a better 7 day car and wins hands down for longer distances. The 991 is a GT car no doubt, if porsche made that concious decision vs the Cayman as the sports model or if it is just the way it worked out is to be discussed.

Both 911 cars are amazing and anyone outside porsche circles probably thinks that we are nuts for so much discussion between cars that they think are the same, buts that's part of the fun of the porsche precision brand imho, subtle evolution.

Values? Cars are supposed to depreciate....but 997 values will hold up well vs the relative costs of the 991 as there is quite a gap in list....the man maths have to stretch a little further to make changing cars work. Who knows what will happen to the market though. Just enjoy them.



When I bought mine in 2014, it worked out at 50% residual value.

In April I looked at prices and they had held up pretty well BUT the prices of 991s were 80% residual value for 3/4 year old cars.

The gap has certainly narrowed in the last 6 months at the OPC forecourts.
Whether they are offering better trade in value, I don't know.

I had the pleasure of driving a 718 Boxster S for a couple of days and was very impressed. Only a short time and I didn't do that many miles but I thought it was every bit as quick as my 4S. Obviously it felt lighter but I couldn't fault the steering. The only Turbo car I have driven to have no noticeable lag.

Sound wise...a hint of "Scooby" more than Porsche but that is understandable.

So the forthcoming Boxster/Caymen GTS is probably going to feel quicker than mine. (I guess on 10 or 15hp less?)

The thought of a Boxster being quicker will dent my pride somewhat.
 
  
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FZP
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 1010
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There will always be quicker cars. I'm sure your average 964 owner doesn't care that a Seat is faster 0-62mph. In a few years you'll be able to buy a Golf R that will trounce a 997, but I won't care one bit either. It's more than numbers on a page
But back on topic, I'm constantly looking at what's on the market and have done since I started looking for mine years ago. Prices are holding solid with cheeky opportunist dealer out there. C4S holding strong and GTS prices being driven up by one particular dealer buying up just about every available car and whacking a far premium on....especially manual ones.
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Rhodris-dad
Nürburgring


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 497
Location: RHYL


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a few years you'll be able to buy a Golf R that will trounce a 997

...maybe an Audi RS3 now, would give a 997 a run for it's money Dont know

Have you seen the youtube footage of it "trouncing" the AMG Merc and others?

a RS4 hung on to me for a short while a few months back. (within the speed limits obviously)
 
  
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chrisbill86
Trainee


Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 81
Location: Milton Keynes


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those RS3 drivers when they get into their car get to look at an Audi badge. We get to look at a dancing horse. 0-60 are just numbers or we'd all drive GTR's
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MNC911
Österreich


Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 959
Location: Prestbury


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisbill86 wrote:
Those RS3 drivers when they get into their car get to look at an Audi badge. We get to look at a dancing horse. 0-60 are just numbers or we'd all drive GTR's


Maybe there is a pole you could start, would have prefer to polish a 911 in the garage or a Audi. Grin
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neil_911
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Joined: 04 Dec 2016
Posts: 89
Location: Doncaster


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly think i bought just before the price hike.

It's reassuring to see, but when i bought mine i couldn't believe they'd not appreciated already. The last of the true 911 drivers cars in my opinion without all the common problems, a 911 you can use every day and has a pretty solid power plant with plentiful horsepower. I don't think a 991 is classy enough yet. More a modern competitor to fit into the market with its rivals. Probably have to have one for another 5-10- years before you start seeing some of your depreciation back on one of those.
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G2
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhodris-dad wrote:


Sound wise...a hint of "Scooby" more than Porsche but that is understandable.

.


Fully agree with this. Had both a 991.2 GTS and 718 as courtesy cars recently. Drove well but no emotional connection... Driving both really helped make the decision to buy a 991.1 4s for the sports exhaust as a longer term car, why? Because my 997 TS is massively capable and laugh out loud fast, but it's Achilles is the exhaust note. The 991.2 makes a similar noise to my 997 but it is slower (ok it's not Comparing apples to apples in the range but the values make it a real comparison in time), but where will that leave the 991.2 in a few years?

I think those with 997 turbos will have some very difficult decisions to make when a change is in the offing. Really interested in what those with N/A cars are thinking when considering changes.

Oh and the OPC email re buying 997s, I'm a bit sceptical that they are really looking at getting us into newer cars rather than wanting the 997 stock that much....just ask for a buy price without wanting to buy something else as a test.

Last edited by G2 on Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to have a laugh have a thumb through the latest edition of 'Parkers'.

Apparently the retail price for an A1 condition 2010 Gen 2 Turbo is £58k.

Best of all ........... 997 Sports Classic = £84k Floor

That means the last few I've seen advertised have been a quarter of a million quid over-priced. Very Happy
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Phil 997
Fuji


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 9916
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T8 wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:


I have heard that as well guys just finding the 991 a bit big and boring even the interior isn't very inspiring. I think the 997.2 is seeing this effect as buyers choose a 997.2 over a 991 as a proper driving car. Its interesting as it feeds onto the other discussion that the Cayman is now Porsche sports car and the 991 is a big GT cruiser so if thats the case then the 997.2 could well end up being the last 911 and that will have a big impact on its prices.
Thumb



The rest of the reasoning might be so but I can't really see how a difference in length of 2.2 inches can make such a difference especially as both cars are the same width. Confused

The 991 looks a lot bigger than a 997 but it's the shape and stance of the car rather than the overall physical dimensions.


Terry 2.2" of length is very very important in a man's world Floor .I agree in the theory they are virtually the same size but as you say its the perception that they are a cruiser not a sports car I think the softer design and the BMW like interior doesn't help with that perception even the seats look like they come from something else in the VAG line up. there just isnt very much sportiness in out out on the 991 with the exception of the GT cars. Thumb
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G2
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 305



PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:



Terry 2.2" of length is very very important in a man's world Floor :


I'm surprised it took 2 pages for this comment...not surprised who though Thumb Floor
 
  
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Phil 997
Fuji


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 9916
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MNC911 wrote:
chrisbill86 wrote:
Those RS3 drivers when they get into their car get to look at an Audi badge. We get to look at a dancing horse. 0-60 are just numbers or we'd all drive GTR's


Maybe there is a pole you could start, would have prefer to polish a 911 in the garage or a Audi. Grin


And how many Audi owners look back at their fast box when they walk away its not just about speed its about how good the the fast moving thing looks as well . Grin some of the air cooled are really not fast cars in 2017 but they look so good rattling and clattering along. give me an air cooled porsche over any euro box anytime . I get beemers hooning up behind me all the time but the car is so bland all they can do is go fast in an attempt to get some exhilaration from their drive. Grin Thumb
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Phil 997
Fuji


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Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G2 wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:



Terry 2.2" of length is very very important in a man's world Floor :


I'm surprised it took 2 pages for this comment...not surprised who though Thumb Floor


Floor Floor Floor Thumb
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Shaoxter
Imola


Joined: 06 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been mulling upgrading to a 991.1 C2S but really can't justify the premium which is around £20-30k cost to change. Test drove a 991 and yes I'd love to have one but it's not really any quicker and didn't feel that different, certainly nowhere as big a jump as going from a 996.2 to 997.2.

The 991 still felt every bit the sports car though, I don't buy the GT tag that some people give it.

Rhodris-dad wrote:

Yellow 2S at Chester £60k (the one I looked at).

How was that car? Have enquired about it but not sold on the colour... (and it doesn't have PSE either).
 
  
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Rhodris-dad
Nürburgring


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 497
Location: RHYL


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaoxter wrote:
I've been mulling upgrading to a 991.1 C2S but really can't justify the premium which is around £20-30k cost to change. Test drove a 991 and yes I'd love to have one but it's not really any quicker and didn't feel that different, certainly nowhere as big a jump as going from a 996.2 to 997.2.

The 991 still felt every bit the sports car though, I don't buy the GT tag that some people give it.

Rhodris-dad wrote:

Yellow 2S at Chester £60k (the one I looked at).

How was that car? Have enquired about it but not sold on the colour... (and it doesn't have PSE either).


No PSE No paddles no cruise

All could be retro fitted and the salesman said they would do a "deal" on the prices for all three.

Yellow...erm..no too sure myself but the black wheels with a yellow pinstripe and Porsche written on them really suit the car.
 
  
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